Not a singular point scored, obviously.

[Legacy User]

Based on how Ben does when he calls the plays, he seems to design plays well enough. But he also seems like the kind of guy you'd love to play poker with. You'd win so much money...

Pretty much exactly what people said about Arians.

I've come to the conclusion that Ben IS the rare talent most of us realize him to be...The other 10 guys around him, as a group, have not been very good....which makes it tough on an OC. Take Ben out of the equation and we're talking '96 Steelers without Bettis and a good running game.

An offensive genius might help, but there just aren't very many of those. The talent around Ben has never been close to top-tier, and it's slid a long ways to the point where it's bottom quartile currently.

Big Ben is tracking Elway in many respects....Years after he retires, people will ask you to name someone else good that Ben played with...You'll get Hines Ward, Bettis (who shouldn't count)....and hopefully AB.

Sharpe, Davis... and I haven't even really plumbed the ol' memry bank

Elway played with some talented guys... On D too- Atwater comes to mind.

[Kodiak]

Elway played with some talented guys... On D too- Atwater comes to mind.

Over his career? Not withstanding Terrel Davis, I think like 3 guys around Elway went to the Pro Bowl his entire career (Sharpe, Rod Smith, and some lineman). Yeah, he had some good defenses...didn't really help Elway do HIS job.

And if you look at Elway's stats...surprisingly pedestrain, He was GREAT when it mattered (something lost in today's ESPN fantasy football highlights).

[Legacy User]

what I don't get, Haley was a shitty hire from the get go but seemed like just about everyone was on board because they wanted rid of Arians. I was not in the camp.

For a year and a half, it seemed like everyone stayed patient because they wanted to validate their opinion and it didn't work. Now, after the 2nd half of last year, the offense is trending way up, all the sudden its a shitty hire?

[Gonzo]

It's always been a shitty hire but not because it's Haley but more what IMO he has been told to do. Which again IMHO is why Arians was fired - for what he disagreed about doing

I have stupidly help out hope that failure would lead to the brain trust re-evaluating their current pool or talent and how they try and win NOW even if their long term goal is different.

[jeemie]

what I don't get, Haley was a shitty hire from the get go but seemed like just about everyone was on board because they wanted rid of Arians. I was not in the camp.

For a year and a half, it seemed like everyone stayed patient because they wanted to validate their opinion and it didn't work. Now, after the 2nd half of last year, the offense is trending way up, all the sudden its a shitty hire?

Not me...I gave up on Haley after half a season because I realized how right FC was about him.

[StillerInCT]

Haley is holding this team back. He held both the Cardinals and the Chiefs back. He needs to open it up and air it out. This is 21st century football. Lack of talent? We've seen coaches do more with less. And Tomlin needs to make some demands. He's been here seven years already. He's needs to cease being a figurehead.

The problem is....who the hell are we going to air it out to? Our WRs outside of AB are borderline garbage. Wheaton is MAYBE a #3 on competitive teams, but he'll be our #2. We've built this team to fit Haley/Tomlin's strategy. There's no going back now. We have what we have for better or worse. This is not a team built to air it out.

To be honest, I don't know what the hell this offense is built to do. Can't run, can't pass, can't block.

[jeemie]

Haley is holding this team back. He held both the Cardinals and the Chiefs back. He needs to open it up and air it out. This is 21st century football. Lack of talent? We've seen coaches do more with less. And Tomlin needs to make some demands. He's been here seven years already. He's needs to cease being a figurehead.

The problem is....who the hell are we going to air it out to? Our WRs outside of AB are borderline garbage. Wheaton is MAYBE a #3 on competitive teams, but he'll be our #2. We've built this team to fit Haley/Tomlin's strategy. There's no going back now. We have what we have for better or worse. This is not a team built to air it out.

We actually didn't build this team to hit Haley's strategy...that's the problem.

[StillerInCT]

Haley is holding this team back. He held both the Cardinals and the Chiefs back. He needs to open it up and air it out. This is 21st century football. Lack of talent? We've seen coaches do more with less. And Tomlin needs to make some demands. He's been here seven years already. He's needs to cease being a figurehead.

The problem is....who the hell are we going to air it out to? Our WRs outside of AB are borderline garbage. Wheaton is MAYBE a #3 on competitive teams, but he'll be our #2. We've built this team to fit Haley/Tomlin's strategy. There's no going back now. We have what we have for better or worse. This is not a team built to air it out.

We actually didn't build this team to hit Haley's strategy...that's the problem.

haha edited my post. But yeah I see your point. I don't know what this offense is built for. They pretty much suck in all 3 phases of the offense.

[Joe Steeler Fan]

what I don't get, Haley was a shitty hire from the get go but seemed like just about everyone was on board because they wanted rid of Arians. I was not in the camp.

For a year and a half, it seemed like everyone stayed patient because they wanted to validate their opinion and it didn't work. Now, after the 2nd half of last year, the offense is trending way up, all the sudden its a shitty hire?

For the record, I wanted Wiz ..... Thought he knew the strengths and weakness of the players the best at the time. Also knew how to make the best use of them. To this day I think that would have been the better move.

I'm sure no ringing endorsement from Cohwer (for any of our coaches) had at least something to do with them going in another direction. Along with the political pressure to be the shining example of the Rooney Rule.

[bradshaw2ben]

Haley is holding this team back. He held both the Cardinals and the Chiefs back. He needs to open it up and air it out. This is 21st century football. Lack of talent? We've seen coaches do more with less. And Tomlin needs to make some demands. He's been here seven years already. He's needs to cease being a figurehead.

The problem is....who the hell are we going to air it out to? Our WRs outside of AB are borderline garbage. Wheaton is MAYBE a #3 on competitive teams, but he'll be our #2. We've built this team to fit Haley/Tomlin's strategy. There's no going back now. We have what we have for better or worse. This is not a team built to air it out.

To be honest, I don't know what the hell this offense is built to do. Can't run, can't pass, can't block.

as I said in another thread, excluding Cleveland, who just bumped up their 2-3-4 WRs to 1-2-3, we have literally the worst 2-3-4WRs in the ENITRE NFL in Wheaton, Moore, & Justin Brown. Even if you project Wheaton to be better than he's shown thusfar and even if you think Moore bounces back from a very bad 2013-- this trio is still the worst in the league.

[Legacy User]

Elway played with some talented guys... On D too- Atwater comes to mind.

Over his career? Not withstanding Terrel Davis, I think like 3 guys around Elway went to the Pro Bowl his entire career (Sharpe, Rod Smith, and some lineman). Yeah, he had some good defenses...didn't really help Elway do HIS job.

And if you look at Elway's stats...surprisingly pedestrain, He was GREAT when it mattered (something lost in today's ESPN fantasy football highlights).

He got his best stats when he wasn't winning Super Bowls. Same goes for Favre to a degree.

Rod Smith was paired with a pretty good #2, can't remember his name- lanky guy. Point being Elway definitely had talent around him when he won SB's. One guy does not a team make.

[bradshaw2ben]

Ed McCaffery

Shit, Elway rolled with Rod Smith (HOF), Ed McCaffery (ProBowl), Shannon Sharpe (HOF), Terrell Davis (All-Pro), Left tackle Gary Zimmerman (HOF)/Tony Jones (Pro Bowl), C Tom Nalen (Pro Bowl), Mark Schlereth (Pro Bowl)

[Legacy User]

Ed McCaffery

Shit, Elway rolled with Rod Smith (HOF), Ed McCaffery (ProBowl), Shannon Sharpe (HOF), Terrell Davis (All-Pro), Left tackle Gary Zimmerman (HOF)/Tony Jones (Pro Bowl), C Tom Nalen (Pro Bowl), Mark Schlereth (Pro Bowl)

Three amigos, Shannon Sharpe

[Legacy User]

Early on he had Gradishar and Tom Jackson too

That's what? 4 HOFers

[bradshaw2ben]

Ed McCaffery

Shit, Elway rolled with Rod Smith (HOF), Ed McCaffery (ProBowl), Shannon Sharpe (HOF), Terrell Davis (All-Pro), Left tackle Gary Zimmerman (HOF)/Tony Jones (Pro Bowl), C Tom Nalen (Pro Bowl), Mark Schlereth (Pro Bowl)

Three amigos, Shannon Sharpe

he didn't win a super bowl until he was surrounded with top talent-- that 97 team was LOADED

[Nick79]

Now, after the 2nd half of last year, the offense is trending way up, all the sudden its a shitty hire?

It's trending up because they went away from Haley's thinking and more toward Ben running the show.

[Nick79]

It's always been a shitty hire but not because it's Haley but more what IMO he has been told to do. Which again IMHO is why Arians was fired - for what he disagreed about doing

Exactly, it's about Haley being willing to let Art2 pull his strings to be more like "Old School Stillers" offense.

[Legacy User]

Now, after the 2nd half of last year, the offense is trending way up, all the sudden its a shitty hire?

It's trending up because they went away from Haley's thinking and more toward Ben running the show.

I hate thinking like this... There is an expectation that a change in OC will lead to great results in Season 1. Same bullshit on this board when Arians took over for Whisenhunt.

What is "Haley's thinking"? Define that a little more and I bet some serious holes can be poked in whatever assumptions are being made with that one.

[Legacy User]

Now, after the 2nd half of last year, the offense is trending way up, all the sudden its a shitty hire?

It's trending up because they went away from Haley's thinking and more toward Ben running the show.

And they started getting healthier

There's that too

You have no idea what it was supposed to look like early with all the injuries

[Legacy User]

I haven't lost faith, Ben made it through full season last year, if he can do it again this year I think we make playoffs, he will make all wrs around him better because that is what Ben does. Do I wish we had better skill players? Hell yes but Haley isn't the one doing the drafting, who knows maybe we will get freak TE or WR next year but until then Ben will make it work