Big Ben ranked 28th best offensive player

[bradshaw2ben]

I think Wilson is the closet thing to Ben's talent level in this league. Balls of steel and just makes play after play.

[V DUB]

I think Wilson is the closet thing to Ben's talent level in this league. Balls of steel and just makes play after play.

In no multiverse do i rank him ahead of Ben, though.

[Legacy User]

just imagine Wilson and Ben flipping teams...Wilson becomes jag imo

[StillMadAtSlobber]

LMAO....Nick Foles is 99th and I assume Andrew Luck is somewhere in the top-20.

Said before Luck looks much more like Eli than the next superstar....clearly the latest flavor-of-the-month QB to be annoited in lieu of giving Roethlisberger his just due among the top-5 QB's.

Yes and No. Not much is due when you consider the shit-show that was last year, and the slightly less steaming pile that was the year before. Its a "what have you done for me lately" league, and we have missed the playoffs and stunk up the place, so Ben's responsibility or not, that is how things appear.

[StillMadAtSlobber]

The problem with this list is positional importance. I think sans maybe 1-2 spots, the top 10 players should all be QBs.

Which is the other problem, then it is just a list of top 10 QBs. Its fundamentally flawed, but perfectly legitimate in the Skip Bayless School of Journalism.

[StillMadAtSlobber]

4 things. Stats. Perception of experts. Eye test. Preferred style.
- Stats: Granted
- Perception: At some point i have to believe that the "gurus" who rate these things have educated opinions and aren't, as some suggest, anti-Ben, anti-Steeler. It's hard to find many experts who put Ben in that class
- Eye test. - Granted
- Preferred style. I admit it, i'm a west coast guy. I'll take a guarateed 5 yard completion on 3rd and 3 over a 20% chance of completing a 25 yd pass. I think the west coast style is more effective. Ben don't play it that way.

I think the 2 remaining categories, Perception and Style, have an inherent similar issue which you fail to see.

A complete and total bias by most of your gurus, to favor the traditional pocket passer.

That is where, by default, Payton/Brady/Brees will get elevated above Ben. Its bitter ass Steve Young who can't stomach Ben's success playing sandlot. Its assclown Jaws who cant be bothered to watch a game but instead slaps a game manager label on Ben based on game stats. And its the rest of the crew of established gurus, that will grant Ben's amazing ability to improvise but cant see pass their archetype pocket passer blinders.

True, some of the same clowns tout the changing of the game with the Dawn of the Era of the Mobile QB, but as those bubbles get burst (Vick, Kapaernik, RGIII) they always go back to their pocket passers.

[Mick]

Just on the stats point,

Let's imagine two kickers. One for his career is more accurate for his career both from inside 40 and from outside 40. The other kicker has the higher overall career %. Who would you say is the better kicker 'by the stats'?

[bradshaw2ben]

just imagine Wilson and Ben flipping teams...Wilson becomes jag imo

does his OC come with him?

Ben is better but, jeez, Wilson has played only two years. Think about where Ben was circa 2006 training camp.

[V DUB]

just imagine Wilson and Ben flipping teams...Wilson becomes jag imo

does his OC come with him?

Ben is better but, jeez, Wilson has played only two years. Think about where Ben was circa 2006 training camp.

The hospital?

[lifelongsteel]

4 things. Stats. Perception of experts. Eye test. Preferred style.
- Stats: Granted
- Perception: At some point i have to believe that the "gurus" who rate these things have educated opinions and aren't, as some suggest, anti-Ben, anti-Steeler. It's hard to find many experts who put Ben in that class
- Eye test. - Granted
- Preferred style. I admit it, i'm a west coast guy. I'll take a guarateed 5 yard completion on 3rd and 3 over a 20% chance of completing a 25 yd pass. I think the west coast style is more effective. Ben don't play it that way.

I think the 2 remaining categories, Perception and Style, have an inherent similar issue which you fail to see.

A complete and total bias by most of your gurus, to favor the traditional pocket passer.

That is where, by default, Payton/Brady/Brees will get elevated above Ben. Its bitter ass Steve Young who can't stomach Ben's success playing sandlot. Its assclown Jaws who cant be bothered to watch a game but instead slaps a game manager label on Ben based on game stats. And its the rest of the crew of established gurus, that will grant Ben's amazing ability to improvise but cant see pass their archetype pocket passer blinders.

True, some of the same clowns tout the changing of the game with the Dawn of the Era of the Mobile QB, but as those bubbles get burst (Vick, Kapaernik, RGIII) they always go back to their pocket passers.

I see your point. I do largely agree with the experts though on what makes good QB play. Ben is an exception to a legitimate rule that the most effective way to play QB is to play from the pocket in rhythm.

Note that these 4 things work together. If Ben had better stats, and did a better job passing the eyetest i would probably call bullshit on what the experts say.

[Kodiak]

Note that these 4 things work together. If Ben had better stats, and did a better job passing the eyetest i would probably call bullshit on what the experts say.

Ben been surrounded by average talent, at best, behind bottom quartile pass pro his whole career. Brady is in a great system and always has guys wide open (the knock on Ben use to be missing open guys and holding the ball - but every time you see replays the receivers are smothered). Mannnig has been surrounded with talent his whole career. Rodgers is surrounded with talent, albeit shaky pass pro. Brees is surrounded with talent.

Let Ben switch places with any of them and I'd bet your relative opinions of the two QB's change. Rodgers is the only one of the 4 that would be successful in PIT. We've seen what happens to Manning again and again when his receivers get mugged and his pass pro breaks down. Brady too, for that matter.

[lifelongsteel]

Note that these 4 things work together. If Ben had better stats, and did a better job passing the eyetest i would probably call bullshit on what the experts say.

Ben been surrounded by average talent, at best, behind bottom quartile pass pro his whole career. Brady is in a great system and always has guys wide open (the knock on Ben use to be missing open guys and holding the ball - but every time you see replays the receivers are smothered). Mannnig has been surrounded with talent his whole career. Rodgers is surrounded with talent, albeit shaky pass pro. Brees is surrounded with talent.

Let Ben switch places with any of them and I'd bet your relative opinions of the two QB's change. Rodgers is the only one of the 4 that would be successful in PIT. We've seen what happens to Manning again and again when his receivers get mugged and his pass pro breaks down. Brady too, for that matter.

I don't agree that Ben has played with average talent.

For his 10 yr career I think his skill position talent has been pretty good
- RB: Bettis, Parker, Mendenhall, Bell
- WR: Hines, Plaxico, Santonio, Wallace, AB
- TE: Heath

Have you seen some of the skill units that Brady has played with? I think he almost got to the super bowl with Reche Caldwell as his primary receiver and BJGE as his primary back.

Pass blocking? Agreed on that front, though we weren't that bad early in Ben's career.

It's also worth noting that Ben on average has had a much better defense behind him than any of those other guys. The 2008 Super Bowl run was fueled by a great D, not Big Ben shredding opposing teams.

[Kodiak]

For his 10 yr career I think his skill position talent has been pretty good
- RB: Bettis, Parker, Mendenhall, Bell
- WR: Hines, Plaxico, Santonio, Wallace, AB
- TE: Heath

That's for his CAREER. Those RB's...please. None of those guys, except perhaps Bell, were top-12 backs. Bettis was literally on his last legs, spinderella had no vision, and Parker was nothing more than speed through a hole.

Hines was solid. He had Plax for ONE year. Santonio he had for like 3, was good and not elite without a guy like Ben throwing him the ball. Wallace is a one-trick pony. Go ahead and compare that to Peyton Manning. Or Brees. Or Rodgers. Most of those guys have almost more around them NOW then Ben has had in his entire career.

And defense has NOTHING to do with QB play. Truthfully nothing (and I know the argument you're going to make, and it's bullshit).

Nice job bringing up Brady. He's actually not been significantly better than Ben (despite superior OL) except for the 3-4 years he actually did have a loaded offense around him.

[bradshaw2ben]

how many seasons did Brady have Randy Moss? that right there is unmatchable. Ben with Randy Moss might have thrown 60 TDs.

[Kodiak]

how many seasons did Brady have Randy Moss? that right there is unmatchable. Ben with Randy Moss might have thrown 60 TDs.

I don't know if it's the "anti-homer" syndrome or what....but people either don't watch other games or they hold Ben to a ridiculously higher standard than other QB's. It's just parroting the analysts who clearly don't watch games.

Ben doesn't have the arm/accuracy of Rodgers or Manning (few, in history, do). But his arm is at least as good as Brees and Brady. And I've not seen anything to convince me Brees is a smarter QB (I'll give you Brady, but I think it's more system than brains). Again, with Ben we are talking a guy who calls his own plays more than anyone in the NFL (yes, including Pee-Pee).

In all honesty, Ben on another team might have been off-the-charts great. Top-5 all-time, easily. Forget debating his pocket play, the pocket presence and ability to shrug off guys combined with his throwing on the run...it's a whole different level. That ability and that value is so rare and so impactful - even if the rest of his game is merely good (which should be a given), nobody comes close to his uniquely his own ROI.