Referees?

[Legacy User]

Yeah let's just conform and do our part to maintain the owners' and their Imp Roger's inelastic demand without question or complaint.

Fuck that noise. I'll never just accept what they've done and are doing to the game. Id rather witness the total destruction of the league and the total extinction of the pro game itself before I support what the NFL has become.

[jeemie]

THIS IS FUCKING NUTS

Of all the shit Goodell has pulled since becoming Commissioner, this is by far the worst decision by him and his goons.

You're absolutely right! So let's NOT COMPLAIN, and instead BE SMART and create an offense that will take advantage of this situation.

If the Steelers want to win, then yes, we should do that.

But for me personally? If I wanted to watch Arena Football, I would.

All the other leagues go back and forth with their rules trying to maintain balance between offense and defense (and actually, they don't change their rules all that much).

Even when they do push them towards offense, it's not so far that defenses can't adapt.

Only the NFL tilts the balance so far towards one side so that the other pretty much can't adapt...and do they really think that makes for a better product?

I don't.

[Legacy User]

Watching a Pro football game has become hoping the great play your team just made is not overturned by a penalty you can only see during the replay in slow motion.

Which was bullshit and shouldn't have been called.

I'm loosing my need for Steeler Football.

Pretty much. The days of being in the moment and celebrating huge plays as they happen are long gone because you're expecting the other shoe to drop and watching for the yellow flag. You're expecting the flag now.

Well said by both of you.

I'm going to put up my $300 for NFL Sunday Ticket once again this year, my only NFL expenditure, as I'm grandfathered into my stand-alone deal and could never get it back if I gave it up.

This damn well could be my final season subscribing though.

And I agree with Lit...I don't think it's shit to do with female fans. I think the proliferation of Fantasy Football is much more to blame. Tronic (rest his soul) called it a few years ago. Ton of people I know now that tell me all they watch is Red Zone, haven't watched a full game in years, all they're interested in is their fantasy team.

I did Fantasy until year before least....didn't do it last year....didn't miss it one goddamn bit.

It's a new breed of fan..no doubt of it. But there are still many of us who want to watch real football. It's beginning to look like another league that offers that would be popular. And they won't be selling 300 dollar jerseys, I bet. Time for a new AFL..

[Nick79]

THIS IS FUCKING NUTS

Of all the shit Goodell has pulled since becoming Commissioner, this is by far the worst decision by him and his goons.

You're absolutely right! So let's NOT COMPLAIN, and instead BE SMART and create an offense that will take advantage of this situation.

If the Steelers want to win, then yes, we should do that.

But for me personally? If I wanted to watch Arena Football, I would.

All the other leagues go back and forth with their rules trying to maintain balance between offense and defense (and actually, they don't change their rules all that much).

Even when they do push them towards offense, it's not so far that defenses can't adapt.

Only the NFL tilts the balance so far towards one side so that the other pretty much can't adapt...and do they really think that makes for a better product?

I don't.

But I don't ever plan to quit watching, so I just want the Steelers to adapt to whatever rules those in power make. It really doesn't bother me(What does bother me is the Steelers being STUPID and not adapting!), I actually have been a big fan of Arena Football for years. Arena Bowl is on tonight by the way. I do agree they have too many rules, I think it would be easy to eliminate 50% of them and make the game faster and better, adopt the CFL's motion and formation rules (get rid of that minutia), cut the play clock to 25 seconds, eliminate the radios in the helmets and make QBs earn their million$ and above all, get rid of replay once and for all.

I've become a huge soccer fan, even with the lack of scoring, why? No replay and almost no stoppages ever, the pace, 45 minutes=47 minutes, in the NFL it equals two hours, speed the game up, eliminate stoppages and reviews and all that nonsense, the rest would take care of itself. Eventually DBs will know what to do and there will be less flags too as far as these current rules..

[steeledge]

All the other leagues go back and forth with their rules trying to maintain balance between offense and defense (and actually, they don't change their rules all that much).

Even when they do push them towards offense, it's not so far that defenses can't adapt.

Only the NFL tilts the balance so far towards one side so that the other pretty much can't adapt....

Can't adapt, or won't adapt?
We are still talking about the Steelers, right?

How our defense thinks to defend in a pass-heavy, flag-happy "point of emphasis" league by lining up past the line at which you can contact a receiver is beyond me, yet we still just keep on doing it.

It really doesn't need to be so complicated...
...and what's more, somehow the riddle is being solved by the likes of Seattle, SF, Carolina...

[Legacy User]

THIS IS FUCKING NUTS

Of all the shit Goodell has pulled since becoming Commissioner, this is by far the worst decision by him and his goons.

You're absolutely right! So let's NOT COMPLAIN, and instead BE SMART and create an offense that will take advantage of this situation.

If the Steelers want to win, then yes, we should do that.

But for me personally? If I wanted to watch Arena Football, I would.

All the other leagues go back and forth with their rules trying to maintain balance between offense and defense (and actually, they don't change their rules all that much).

Even when they do push them towards offense, it's not so far that defenses can't adapt.

Only the NFL tilts the balance so far towards one side so that the other pretty much can't adapt...and do they really think that makes for a better product?

I don't.

Fans who like defense are being ignored. If you like defense, you will tend to think this is a shitty product. It's where I'm at.

In politics, it's dangerous to change laws too often because it will breed contempt for the law. There's a lot of grumbling about the NFL going on. Nonetheless, more and more money keeps pouring in.

[Legacy User]

If they call it like preseason...my opinion is ratings slide and things change quickly.

It is going to be so frustrating to watch...my guess is point of emphasis is actually any mutual contact is called against the defense.

[Nick79]

Fans who like defense are being ignored. If you like defense, you will tend to think this is a shitty product. It's where I'm at.

I've never disliked defense per se, I just got to the point where I got sick and tired of the Steelers always over emphasizing defense and never wanting to be the powerhouse high scoring offense. Always wanting to run out the clock with small leads, rather than fighting to make those leads bigger. The Steelers ideology as opposed to the sport as a whole, are the reason that I skewed so far towards preferring offense. And because of that, I've welcomed anything that will FORCE THEM to be more offensive even if it's against their will.

[Legacy User]

Fans who like defense are being ignored. If you like defense, you will tend to think this is a shitty product. It's where I'm at.

I've never disliked defense per se, I just got to the point where I got sick and tired of the Steelers always over emphasizing defense and never wanting to be the powerhouse high scoring offense. Always wanting to run out the clock with small leads, rather than fighting to make those leads bigger. The Steelers ideology as opposed to the sport as a whole, are the reason that I skewed so far towards preferring offense. And because of that, I've welcomed anything that will FORCE THEM to be more offensive even if it's against their will.

I loved the defensive emphasis because that's the product I want to see. Steelers v Ravens 2005-2010 were the most exciting, nail biting games in the NFL. What I am forced to watch now is boring as fuck compared to those tilts.

[zeke5123]

And I agree with Lit...I don't think it's shit to do with female fans. I think the proliferation of Fantasy Football is much more to blame. Tronic (rest his soul) called it a few years ago. Ton of people I know now that tell me all they watch is Red Zone, haven't watched a full game in years, all they're interested in is their fantasy team.

I did Fantasy until year before least....didn't do it last year....didn't miss it one goddamn bit.

I don't really understand this argument. As a FF player, the explosion in passing rules has made FF less fun. Basically, you can get a starting QB off the waiver wire. It kills the QB position for FF purposes, because the supply of QBs outpace the demand. I drafted in a league yesterday. I took Matt Ryan as my starter in the 11th round. If he doesn't work out, I'll probably have my choice of Alex Smith, Eli Manning, or even Josh McCown. Not to mention I could easily trade for a guy like Andy Dalton or even Ben.

In my mind, the rule changes make FF less fun.

[jeemie]

I actually have been a big fan of Arena Football for years. Arena Bowl is on tonight by the way.

Nick...the point of my post was that Arena Football already exists.

We don't need another Arena Football League.

[Legacy User]

Fans who like defense are being ignored. If you like defense, you will tend to think this is a shitty product. It's where I'm at.

I've never disliked defense per se, I just got to the point where I got sick and tired of the Steelers always over emphasizing defense and never wanting to be the powerhouse high scoring offense. Always wanting to run out the clock with small leads, rather than fighting to make those leads bigger. The Steelers ideology as opposed to the sport as a whole, are the reason that I skewed so far towards preferring offense. And because of that, I've welcomed anything that will FORCE THEM to be more offensive even if it's against their will.

I loved the defensive emphasis because that's the product I want to see. Steelers v Ravens 2005-2010 were the most exciting, nail biting games in the NFL. What I am forced to watch now is boring as fuck compared to those tilts.

Agree 100%. Touchdowns used to mean something because you knew they were earned. They were worth getting excited about because you knew there was no guarantee about getting the next one.

The thrill is gone.

[swissvale72]

And I agree with Lit...I don't think it's shit to do with female fans. I think the proliferation of Fantasy Football is much more to blame. Tronic (rest his soul) called it a few years ago. Ton of people I know now that tell me all they watch is Red Zone, haven't watched a full game in years, all they're interested in is their fantasy team.

I did Fantasy until year before least....didn't do it last year....didn't miss it one goddamn bit.

I don't really understand this argument. As a FF player, the explosion in passing rules has made FF less fun. Basically, you can get a starting QB off the waiver wire. It kills the QB position for FF purposes, because the supply of QBs outpace the demand. I drafted in a league yesterday. I took Matt Ryan as my starter in the 11th round. If he doesn't work out, I'll probably have my choice of Alex Smith, Eli Manning, or even Josh McCown. Not to mention I could easily trade for a guy like Andy Dalton or even Ben.

In my mind, the rule changes make FF less fun.

Intellectually, this is true zeke, for ff players that have a clue. Couple things though...now, even the clueless can have a kickass fantasy team and stay glued to redzone all day sunday. And, on an emotiona level, the bigger the numbers, the greater the appeal of ff. The twi n douchebags mike and mike forever carrying on about 5000 yd passers, etc. I definitely think there's a connection betweeen parlaying the rule changes to escalating obsession with ff

[Nick79]

I loved the defensive emphasis because that's the product I want to see. Steelers v Ravens 2005-2010 were the most exciting, nail biting games in the NFL. What I am forced to watch now is boring as fuck compared to those tilts.

Agree 100%. Touchdowns used to mean something because you knew they were earned. They were worth getting excited about because you knew there was no guarantee about getting the next one.

The thrill is gone.

I can agree that maybe 56-49 is too much, but also watching 13-10 games with 20-30 punts to me anyways, was just too little as far as an enjoyable experience. Sure some of those Steelers/Ravens games where nail biters, but the nail biting came after 57 minutes of frustration much of the time.

[zeke5123]

And I agree with Lit...I don't think it's shit to do with female fans. I think the proliferation of Fantasy Football is much more to blame. Tronic (rest his soul) called it a few years ago. Ton of people I know now that tell me all they watch is Red Zone, haven't watched a full game in years, all they're interested in is their fantasy team.

I did Fantasy until year before least....didn't do it last year....didn't miss it one goddamn bit.

I don't really understand this argument. As a FF player, the explosion in passing rules has made FF less fun. Basically, you can get a starting QB off the waiver wire. It kills the QB position for FF purposes, because the supply of QBs outpace the demand. I drafted in a league yesterday. I took Matt Ryan as my starter in the 11th round. If he doesn't work out, I'll probably have my choice of Alex Smith, Eli Manning, or even Josh McCown. Not to mention I could easily trade for a guy like Andy Dalton or even Ben.

In my mind, the rule changes make FF less fun.

Intellectually, this is true zeke, for ff players that have a clue. Couple things though...now, even the clueless can have a kickass fantasy team and stay glued to redzone all day sunday. And, on an emotiona level, the bigger the numbers, the greater the appeal of ff. The twi n douchebags mike and mike forever carrying on about 5000 yd passers, etc. I definitely think there's a connection betweeen parlaying the rule changes to escalating obsession with ff

Hadn't thought about that. By making FF easy by increasing the pool of available good players, you ensure more parity in leagues, which leads to more eyes glued to the tv.

I also get the intrigue in watching guys put up "historic" numbers, even if those numbers are illusory.

[Legacy User]

Hadn't thought about that. By making FF easy by increasing the pool of available good players, you ensure more parity in leagues, which leads to more eyes glued to the tv.

I also get the intrigue in watching guys put up "historic" numbers, even if those numbers are illusory.

Definitely. That's all I hear about from fantasy football guys is how they either won or lost because someone they either had or played against had some record breaking game.

"I was winning until Peyton Manning threw for 4 TDs!"

"You realize Peyton Manning has done that in the majority of his games this season, right?"

[Nick79]

Really I think the key to winning at fantasy is to have a reliable set of players that you can start week after week. If you have good producers at every position, and be lucky and they don't get injured and they are clearly better than their alternatives on your bench, you will win. I've won 3 FF leagues over the years, the years I won, it was like that, NO DECISIONS TO MAKE EVER, NO INJURIES. If you have to chose between 2-3 players, the odds are good you won't choose right more than 50% of the time IMO. And of course, having a Manning or A.Peterson of course is a must. you need a big hitter or a few.

[Nick79]

Just saw the start of the AZ/Bengals game, and heard what was Arians opinion of the new PI/Holding "point of emphasis", Bruce said, "About time"... He and I are kindred spirits, I still regret that he, IMO. with no proof, was never allowed to run the Steelers offense 110% his way with no preconditions or limitations.

[955876]

It's clear the Goon wants the refs to be the stars of the show. It's no longer bout football. It's about controlling & manipulating outcomes.

I said about 3 years ago this game will be unwatchable in 5 years.

We are pretty close to that.

You get harder hits on an episode of the Kardashians than you do an NFL game.

[Legacy User]

I'm starting to like Richard Sherman more and more. Regarding the new mandate in the way games are called:

“I think the point of emphasis is what it is but I think it’s a little bit more, you know, of the league trying to mandate, a playing style which is interesting. When the fantasy football numbers need to be what they need to be, then the league needs to do what it needs to do to get it done. This is a money-driven league. So whatever sells the tickets is gonna sell the tickets.”

“Selling tickets is the number one concern and fantasy football is a phase of that. That is the next billion dollar industry that they’re gonna protect.”


Glad to see it's becoming obvious to everyone that the game itself is being tailored to ancillary entities like FF.

[Legacy User]

The problem isn't so much the regular season games, it's the big games.

Look at last year - they can't get an easy fumble call right, even with instant replay ... and then on top of that - they don't even review the spot. With these calls, the only thing your going to have is playoffs and championships decided on whether an officials saw the CB touch the WR jersey or not as he was running past him.

Everyone here used to watch a game and instantly knew whether something was a catch, interception, penalty, etc.

I watched the 93 opener vs the 49ers. The 49ers fumbled but the guy was ruled down - on the one replay they showed, the ball was out, but nobody in the booth, nor in the stadium really gave it a second thought. The next series the 49ers intercept the ball, and my first thought was that it was trapped, again - no real concern during the replay and nobody on the steelers sideline even complained. Finally Foster fumbled the ball, they showed the replay and the ball was clearly out (although right after some Steelers thought Foster was down first, he wasn't). Three controversial calls by today's standards, but the game just went on - everyone took the plays at face value.

Those days are done, now we are going to not only get high definition slow speed replays, but a holy shitstorm of complaining when we see those 3 frames where the DB's finger tugged on the WR jersey... OMG THE OFFENSE WAS ROBBED - IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN CALLED!

[Legacy User]

The problem isn't so much the regular season games, it's the big games.

Look at last year - they can't get an easy fumble call right, even with instant replay ... and then on top of that - they don't even review the spot. With these calls, the only thing your going to have is playoffs and championships decided on whether an officials saw the CB touch the WR jersey or not as he was running past him.

Everyone here used to watch a game and instantly knew whether something was a catch, interception, penalty, etc.

I watched the 93 opener vs the 49ers. The 49ers fumbled but the guy was ruled down - on the one replay they showed, the ball was out, but nobody in the booth, nor in the stadium really gave it a second thought. The next series the 49ers intercept the ball, and my first thought was that it was trapped, again - no real concern during the replay and nobody on the steelers sideline even complained. Finally Foster fumbled the ball, they showed the replay and the ball was clearly out (although right after some Steelers thought Foster was down first, he wasn't). Three controversial calls by today's standards, but the game just went on - everyone took the plays at face value.

Those days are done, now we are going to not only get high definition slow speed replays, but a holy shitstorm of complaining when we see those 3 frames where the DB's finger tugged on the WR jersey... OMG THE OFFENSE WAS ROBBED - IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN CALLED!

Exactly.

Replay was reintroduced under the premise of "getting it right" and reducing controversy, and I was in favor of that. Except, here we are, 15 years later, and the bad calls and controversy are as strong as they ever were...and we've caused the game to slow to a halt in the process.

Get rid of it and live with the results in the name of a better product, I say.

[Orangesteel]

This is a serious question;

Has anyone ever heard of a legitimate reason why PI in college is 15 yards and in the NFL is a spot foul? Can anyone throw out an argument as to why this is the case?

[Fury]

It's clear the Goon wants the refs to be the stars of the show. It's no longer bout football. It's about controlling & manipulating outcomes.

I said about 3 years ago this game will be unwatchable in 5 years.

We are pretty close to that.

You get harder hits on an episode of the Kardashians than you do an NFL game.

I can almost guarantee that the refs don't want to be the stars in anything. They want to show up, call game, leave and get paid with the least resistance. Throwing a flag causes resistance, replays cause resistance, getting in front of TV causes resistance. Most (I say most) want to fly under the radar.

I don't think the refs are making stuff up; they are executing what the competition committee (the teams) and the NFL wants them to. The refs are just the puppets for Goodell.

I'd also bet that behind closed doors, most officials think some of this stuff is ridiculous; they don't get a vote during the rules making process. However, the quickest way to become an ex-referee is not to call a contest the way a league wants it called.

[zeke5123]

The problem isn't so much the regular season games, it's the big games.

Look at last year - they can't get an easy fumble call right, even with instant replay ... and then on top of that - they don't even review the spot. With these calls, the only thing your going to have is playoffs and championships decided on whether an officials saw the CB touch the WR jersey or not as he was running past him.

Everyone here used to watch a game and instantly knew whether something was a catch, interception, penalty, etc.

I watched the 93 opener vs the 49ers. The 49ers fumbled but the guy was ruled down - on the one replay they showed, the ball was out, but nobody in the booth, nor in the stadium really gave it a second thought. The next series the 49ers intercept the ball, and my first thought was that it was trapped, again - no real concern during the replay and nobody on the steelers sideline even complained. Finally Foster fumbled the ball, they showed the replay and the ball was clearly out (although right after some Steelers thought Foster was down first, he wasn't). Three controversial calls by today's standards, but the game just went on - everyone took the plays at face value.

Those days are done, now we are going to not only get high definition slow speed replays, but a holy shitstorm of complaining when we see those 3 frames where the DB's finger tugged on the WR jersey... OMG THE OFFENSE WAS ROBBED - IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN CALLED!

Exactly.

Replay was reintroduced under the premise of "getting it right" and reduce controversy, and I was in favor of that. Except, here we are, 15 years later, and the bad calls and controversy are as strong as they ever were...and we've caused the game to slow to a half in the process.

Get rid of it and live with the results in the name of a better product, I say.

I had a wise law professor say once: Imagine you make the right calls 90% of the time. Often, attempting to fine-tune the decision-making process to get that final 10% right backfires, so that you end up with only getting 85% of the calls right, despite incurring much greater cost on society. This is because the process of fine-tuning turns simple rules into complex rules, which in turn almost necessarily have ambiguities.

I think the NFL runs into that problem often.

[Nick79]

Exactly.

Replay was reintroduced under the premise of "getting it right" and reducing controversy, and I was in favor of that. Except, here we are, 15 years later, and the bad calls and controversy are as strong as they ever were...and we've caused the game to slow to a halt in the process.

Get rid of it and live with the results in the name of a better product, I say.

Well, here, you and me agree 100000000000%!!! I hate reviews and I don't care if they get it 100% right. It's just a game, just entertainment...I say that and people ridicule me, but it's true. And other sports haven't been ruined by micromanagement like football.

They have taken getting right too far or not far enough! You either have to watch a gazillion slow-mo views and no two people would have the same opinion, or you see something obvious, but you're not allowed to review that!

When a great play happens, how often do you jump up and cheer, then endure 5 minutes of commercials and guys under hoods, ultimately deflating your elation?

The concept is OK, but in the end it has taken over the game! I have often said, just have a review official in the booth, who only overturns things that are 100% clear from 2 angles or less within 60 seconds, no challenges, and if 60 seconds pass and you still can't decide, play on. Things like the ball clearly hit the ground, I mean like 6 inches up, not looking for 10 minutes and multiple angles to see if it moved 1/32nd of an inch! Or you saw half the guys foot hit the sideline... AND NO Challenge FLAGS, the video official only reviews SUPER OBVIOUS mistakes, every thing close is left as is.

[bradshaw2ben]

It's clear the Goon wants the refs to be the stars of the show. It's no longer bout football. It's about controlling & manipulating outcomes.

I said about 3 years ago this game will be unwatchable in 5 years.

We are pretty close to that.

You get harder hits on an episode of the Kardashians than you do an NFL game.

I can almost guarantee that the refs don't want to be the stars in anything. They want to show up, call game, leave and get paid with the least resistance. Throwing a flag causes resistance, replays cause resistance, getting in front of TV causes resistance. Most (I say most) want to fly under the radar.

I don't think the refs are making stuff up; they are executing what the competition committee (the teams) and the NFL wants them to. The refs are just the puppets for Goodell.

I'd also bet that behind closed doors, most officials think some of this stuff is ridiculous; they don't get a vote during the rules making process. However, the quickest way to become an ex-referee is not to call a contest the way a league wants it called.

some of what you say has merit-- but the highest level of anything as crony, political, and senority-driven as being an NFL official is going to include a very different array of personalities, intellects, and humanity than anything you or I encountered at lower levels-- although you would agree, I'm sure, that there are signs of that at every level. I think your average NFL referee and MLB umpire enjoy the hell out of the center of attention bit, and I'd be willing to bet other NFL officials include a large percentage of large egos as well.

[jebrick]

It sounds like they need to modify the Blount rule to what they will allow or get rid of it. They are just enforcing a rule on books since 1978. The CB need to adjust or the NFL needs to modify the rule to allow for some hand fighting.

[Legacy User]

When a great play happens, how often do you jump up and cheer, then endure 5 minutes of commercials and guys under hoods, ultimately deflating your elation?

Well to be fair, most times you don't jump up and cheer anymore after a great play because you're expecting a bunch of yellow flags to come flying across the screen. And most times those flags show up right on cue. That's the far bigger problem than replay IMO.

[955876]

It's clear the Goon wants the refs to be the stars of the show. It's no longer bout football. It's about controlling & manipulating outcomes.

I said about 3 years ago this game will be unwatchable in 5 years.

We are pretty close to that.

You get harder hits on an episode of the Kardashians than you do an NFL game.

I can almost guarantee that the refs don't want to be the stars in anything. They want to show up, call game, leave and get paid with the least resistance. Throwing a flag causes resistance, replays cause resistance, getting in front of TV causes resistance. Most (I say most) want to fly under the radar.

I don't think the refs are making stuff up; they are executing what the competition committee (the teams) and the NFL wants them to. The refs are just the puppets for Goodell.

I'd also bet that behind closed doors, most officials think some of this stuff is ridiculous; they don't get a vote during the rules making process. However, the quickest way to become an ex-referee is not to call a contest the way a league wants it called.

I wasn't being literal when I said he wants the refs to be the star of the show. There is a bigger, dirtier picture behind closed doors.

The refs are the gestapo and Goodell is der fuhrer