Confirms What We All Saw Last Season

A place to talk Steelers football and what else is going on around the NFL
Orangesteel
Posts: 3871
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:23 pm

Confirms What We All Saw Last Season

Post by Orangesteel » Tue May 11, 2021 5:01 am

https://mobile.twitter.com/PFF_Sam/stat ... l-focus%2F

If the run game improves this should change a bit. But Ben has to have a better attitude about turning his back to the defense. I’m not saying we need to do it as much as the Ravens do, but it’s shockingly low how little we run play action. Reduces chances for chunk plays and puts massive amount of pressure on executing every single possession and converting 3rd downs. This is not how you win in the modern NFL.


“Thoughts are a waste of time for me.” - Michael Pettaway Tomlin

User avatar
K_C_
Posts: 18717
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:37 pm
Location: Boca Raton, Florida
Contact:

Post by K_C_ » Tue May 11, 2021 10:41 am

Ben doesn’t want to get hit anymore.

His body is finishing up the whole NFL thing.

Let’s enjoy his last go ‘round and hope it goes okay.
"In my opinion, he is a great motivator and good leader of men, but a shit tactician and absolutely game day imbecile".

Baltostiller

R_S
Posts: 6301
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:55 am

Post by R_S » Tue May 11, 2021 11:14 am

They havent run PA in what feels like close to 10 years. Its a problem.

SteelerDayTrader
Posts: 2535
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:12 pm

Post by SteelerDayTrader » Tue May 11, 2021 1:50 pm

In order for PA not to be a HUGE DISADVANTAGE......defenses need to fear what your OL and RBs can do.....lol

The Steelers RB unit was the worst in the NFL and the OL wasnt far behind

PA will make things worse in those circumstances

I suspect the Steelers will be slow to start Green and Moore. I also think DeCastro will continue to decline.

PA doesnt help if opponents have no fear of the run game
Gorilla Warfare

R_S
Posts: 6301
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:55 am

Post by R_S » Tue May 11, 2021 1:52 pm

But what about the years when Bell was gashing defenses. They still didn't run the damn PA pass with any regularity. And yes, I blame Ben for it.

User avatar
Ice
Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:41 pm
Location: Delawhere?

Post by Ice » Tue May 11, 2021 2:17 pm

PA wasn't a Haley or Sphincter specialty. Hell, Arians didn't run it with much regularity, either. Don't think it was a big part of the TB gameplan under Brucie either of the last two years, for that matter. Whiz was really the last Steeler OC who I remember featuring PA with any real fidelity, and that was a while ago. Could be Ben, but could also just be that the last three OCs haven't been big fans.
Nothing left to do but smile, smile, smile...

User avatar
Professor Half Wit
Posts: 2387
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:23 pm

Post by Professor Half Wit » Tue May 11, 2021 2:49 pm

U shaped offense + ZERO play action + shitty deep ball performance did not for a championship make.

Alex Kozora points to interesting stats from Football Outsiders (https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat- ... tions-2020) that have Ben tied for second among QBs with the most near interceptions. Not surprising given the offense they ran.
We then add plays where the quarterback threw a ball that could have or should have been intercepted but was not, either because the defender outright dropped the ball (which we have been tracking in game charting since 2007), or he had it knocked out of his hands by an offensive receiver (a "defensed interception," which we have been tracking since 2012). These are listed as "Drop/Def INT" in the table at the end of this page. Ben Roethlisberger had 10 such plays last season, most in the league; Kyler Murray, Sam Darnold, and Nick Foles were tied for second with nine each.
Two players tied for second behind Wentz with 20 adjusted interceptions: Pittsburgh's Ben Roethlisberger and Arizona's Kyler Murray. As noted earlier, Roethlisberger led all players with 10 dropped interceptions, and Murray was just one behind him. Add those 10 picks to Roethlisberger's 10 interceptions that weren't dropped and you get 20. Murray threw 12 interceptions with nine drops, but we also subtract one that was tipped by a receiver to get his total of 20.
I think it's great that the Steelers went out and got a stud RB, but unless the o line gives Ben the time to throw deep balls and unless Ben figures out how to throw the deep ball again well consistently, we're in for more predictable, limited offense.
"We're all in strung out shape. But stay frosty, and alert."

User avatar
COR-TEN
Posts: 10848
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:49 pm

Post by COR-TEN » Tue May 11, 2021 2:52 pm

I have three words :

Holy

Fucking

Shit.

User avatar
Pabst
Posts: 2476
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:14 pm

Post by Pabst » Tue May 11, 2021 3:26 pm

Saving everyone a click.
Image

- Probably not a coincidence that the offenses get much better as you move to the right of the scatter plot

- One way to look at this chart: Every time Ben turns to hand the ball off, there's a 90% chance it's a run. I admire the consistency, but you're just giving defenses license to pin their ears back and attack the LOS.

rocky mtn stiller
Posts: 205
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:42 pm

Post by rocky mtn stiller » Tue May 11, 2021 3:52 pm

When I was watching Freirmuth's highlights on youtube, something stood out to me. Most of the plays shown in the video involved play action. I remember wondering if he would still have a chance to be open or uncovered without some deception.

User avatar
bradshaw2ben
Site Admin
Posts: 22325
Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:51 am
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Post by bradshaw2ben » Tue May 11, 2021 4:07 pm

rocky mtn stiller wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 3:52 pm
When I was watching Freirmuth's highlights on youtube, something stood out to me. Most of the plays shown in the video involved play action. I remember wondering if he would still have a chance to be open or uncovered without some deception.
His highlights are like that because he's not a good enough athlete to get open much without PA.

Orangesteel
Posts: 3871
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:23 pm

Post by Orangesteel » Tue May 11, 2021 5:07 pm

bradshaw2ben wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 4:07 pm
rocky mtn stiller wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 3:52 pm
When I was watching Freirmuth's highlights on youtube, something stood out to me. Most of the plays shown in the video involved play action. I remember wondering if he would still have a chance to be open or uncovered without some deception.
His highlights are like that because he's not a good enough athlete to get open much without PA.
Lovely.
“Thoughts are a waste of time for me.” - Michael Pettaway Tomlin

Jizz Mop
Posts: 1713
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:44 pm

Post by Jizz Mop » Tue May 11, 2021 7:55 pm

So a slow and plodding TE w decent hands is a poor 2nd round selection?

I will still say we needed Oline there

We could have gotten a much more athletic TE later

User avatar
meanjustinbarlow
Posts: 322
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:18 pm

Post by meanjustinbarlow » Wed May 12, 2021 5:13 am

Note that SB winning Bucs had the 3rd least play action in the NFL....

tunch
Posts: 1150
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:35 am

Post by tunch » Wed May 12, 2021 6:25 am

meanjustinbarlow wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 5:13 am
Note that SB winning Bucs had the 3rd least play action in the NFL....
We should get Ben three HOFers to throw to.

That'll be much easier than designing some plays.

ToddHaleysNineIron
Posts: 324
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:55 pm

Post by ToddHaleysNineIron » Wed May 12, 2021 10:51 am

meanjustinbarlow wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 5:13 am
Note that SB winning Bucs had the 3rd least play action in the NFL....
I'd bet if they moved to where the steelers are, they don't win that super bowl.

I'd bet if the Steelers were closer to where the Bucs are, they probably don't lose some games down the stretch.

User avatar
anpsteel
Posts: 168
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:47 pm

Post by anpsteel » Wed May 12, 2021 1:23 pm

Jizz Mop wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 7:55 pm
So a slow and plodding TE w decent hands is a poor 2nd round selection?

I will still say we needed Oline there

We could have gotten a much more athletic TE later
They also still need someone to play the Buck position that isn't a complete liability in coverage.

Orangesteel
Posts: 3871
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:23 pm

Post by Orangesteel » Wed May 12, 2021 1:41 pm

meanjustinbarlow wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 5:13 am
Note that SB winning Bucs had the 3rd least play action in the NFL....
Anything having to do with Tom Brady should be removed from the analysis as an outlier. His been in the league long enough and surprised each and every one of us time and time again that it completely turns reason and logic on its head.
“Thoughts are a waste of time for me.” - Michael Pettaway Tomlin

tunch
Posts: 1150
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:35 am

Post by tunch » Wed May 12, 2021 4:52 pm

Orangesteel wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 1:41 pm
meanjustinbarlow wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 5:13 am
Note that SB winning Bucs had the 3rd least play action in the NFL....
Anything having to do with Tom Brady should be removed from the analysis as an outlier. His been in the league long enough and surprised each and every one of us time and time again that it completely turns reason and logic on its head.
The Bucs ran play actions 43% of the snaps in the Super Bowl.

https://www.buccaneers.com/news/bucs-su ... -gen-stats

Brady spent the early part of the season trying not to get killed by Bruce and his deep drops. Then Brady ran more of his quick stuff throughout the season to stay upright.

Then, come winning season, Brady runs the stuff that is most effective: play-action.

Steel Mike
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:34 pm

Post by Steel Mike » Wed May 12, 2021 10:16 pm

The thing I don’t get is that you can run PA without turning your back to the defense, if that’s really Ben’s issue with PA.

Running PA out of pistol and shotgun would eliminate the need to turn around.
Twitter: @MikeDForThree

stillthere
Posts: 5454
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:37 am

Post by stillthere » Wed May 12, 2021 10:26 pm

Steel Mike wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 10:16 pm
The thing I don’t get is that you can run PA without turning your back to the defense, if that’s really Ben’s issue with PA.

Running PA out of pistol and shotgun would eliminate the need to turn around.
Pistol can be a large chunk of Matt Canada's offense. The install film has pistol as the first snap I believe. The Wisconsin install film is on youtube I think. One of the schools he coached at but I think the players showing on film are Northern Illinois.

tunch
Posts: 1150
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:35 am

Post by tunch » Thu May 13, 2021 12:48 am

Ben is an asshole if he's been the one with a problem with play-action.

He's an incredible play-action QB. Simply amazing. I'm not even sure if Plaxico was any good or he was productive because Ben could give him seven seconds to get free.

It's the QB's fault if he can't ID the blitzers by year 17.

Orangesteel
Posts: 3871
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:23 pm

Post by Orangesteel » Thu May 13, 2021 12:50 am

tunch wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 12:48 am
Ben is an asshole if he's been the one with a problem with play-action.

He's an incredible play-action QB. Simply amazing. I'm not even sure if Plaxico was any good or he was productive because Ben could give him seven seconds to get free.

It's the QB's fault if he can't ID the blitzers by year 17.
This.
“Thoughts are a waste of time for me.” - Michael Pettaway Tomlin

Kodiak
Posts: 18580
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:43 pm

Post by Kodiak » Thu May 13, 2021 4:13 am

tunch wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 12:48 am
It's the QB's fault if he can't ID the blitzers by year 17.
I'm sure Ben can identify the blitzers.

Problem is, for most of his career, the hogs in front of him struggle to block 1 on 1. I would say at least 75% of the time pass pro is lacking when they try to run PA.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ben comes back, Tomlin doesn't = CHAMPIONSHIP!!!

User avatar
JackLambert58
Posts: 7291
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:12 pm
Location: Rhode Island (Behind Enemy Lines)

Post by JackLambert58 » Fri May 14, 2021 11:58 pm

Professor Half Wit wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 2:49 pm
U shaped offense + ZERO play action + shitty deep ball performance did not for a championship make.

Alex Kozora points to interesting stats from Football Outsiders (https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat- ... tions-2020) that have Ben tied for second among QBs with the most near interceptions. Not surprising given the offense they ran.
We then add plays where the quarterback threw a ball that could have or should have been intercepted but was not, either because the defender outright dropped the ball (which we have been tracking in game charting since 2007), or he had it knocked out of his hands by an offensive receiver (a "defensed interception," which we have been tracking since 2012). These are listed as "Drop/Def INT" in the table at the end of this page. Ben Roethlisberger had 10 such plays last season, most in the league; Kyler Murray, Sam Darnold, and Nick Foles were tied for second with nine each.
Two players tied for second behind Wentz with 20 adjusted interceptions: Pittsburgh's Ben Roethlisberger and Arizona's Kyler Murray. As noted earlier, Roethlisberger led all players with 10 dropped interceptions, and Murray was just one behind him. Add those 10 picks to Roethlisberger's 10 interceptions that weren't dropped and you get 20. Murray threw 12 interceptions with nine drops, but we also subtract one that was tipped by a receiver to get his total of 20.
I think it's great that the Steelers went out and got a stud RB, but unless the o line gives Ben the time to throw deep balls and unless Ben figures out how to throw the deep ball again well consistently, we're in for more predictable, limited offense.
There's actually a stat for "near interceptions?" Is there also a stat for "near receptions" as well? God knows there were tons of those with number of drops by Steelers receivers last season.

tunch
Posts: 1150
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:35 am

Post by tunch » Sat May 15, 2021 8:08 pm

JackLambert58 wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 11:58 pm
There's actually a stat for "near interceptions?" Is there also a stat for "near receptions" as well? God knows there were tons of those with number of drops by Steelers receivers last season.
A season with eight or ten dropped interceptions has gotten some quarterbacks some very big contracts over the years.

Kodiak
Posts: 18580
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:43 pm

Post by Kodiak » Sat May 15, 2021 8:37 pm

tunch wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 8:08 pm
A season with eight or ten dropped interceptions has gotten some quarterbacks some very big contracts over the years.
Seems like Ben has been knocked for that for years.

I have two takeaways: Ben, Rodgers and Mahomes have arm talent on a completely other level that makes throws routine for them that other QB's have no business throwing.

Ben has to take more risks in an offense run by morons under the thumb of goals & mandates from an even bigger offensive idiot.

OK, three takeaways. The hate for Ben outside PIT remains very strong. I continue to see a lot of bias in subjective stats like this. I'm under no delusions that Ben doesn't make more bad decisions and bad throws than most other elite QB's. But bottom quartile in the NFL?!? No fucking way. File this all under another attempt to "prove" that the HOF QB with no running game, a bad OL and idiots as coaches isn't actually as good as he looks on tape.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ben comes back, Tomlin doesn't = CHAMPIONSHIP!!!

tunch
Posts: 1150
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:35 am

Post by tunch » Sat May 15, 2021 8:53 pm

Kodiak wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 8:37 pm
tunch wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 8:08 pm
A season with eight or ten dropped interceptions has gotten some quarterbacks some very big contracts over the years.
Seems like Ben has been knocked for that for years.

I have two takeaways: Ben, Rodgers and Mahomes have arm talent on a completely other level that makes throws routine for them that other QB's have no business throwing.

Ben has to take more risks in an offense run by morons under the thumb of goals & mandates from an even bigger offensive idiot.

OK, three takeaways. The hate for Ben outside PIT remains very strong. I continue to see a lot of bias in subjective stats like this. I'm under no delusions that Ben doesn't make more bad decisions and bad throws than most other elite QB's. But bottom quartile in the NFL?!? No fucking way. File this all under another attempt to "prove" that the HOF QB with no running game, a bad OL and idiots as coaches isn't actually as good as he looks on tape.
I used to think Ben may have had good luck on dropped picks until I watched mid-late career Eli Manning. That guy had a horseshoe up his ass.

It's always been hard to judge dropped INT luck after watching Ike Taylor drop at least 20 and Rod Woodson drop no less than 100.

It's been obvious for years that, depending on who's calling the plays, there are two Bens. It's probably going to be a shit year if Canada is a zealot for his system. It's going to be a very good year if we see an incredible amount of no-huddle.

Kodiak
Posts: 18580
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:43 pm

Post by Kodiak » Sat May 15, 2021 11:21 pm

tunch wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 8:53 pm
It's always been hard to judge dropped INT luck after watching Ike Taylor drop at least 20 and Rod Woodson drop no less than 100.
I would say almost every QB in the league gets away with at least 1 dropped pick per game. Probably more like 2.

But like you said, it's very subjective.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ben comes back, Tomlin doesn't = CHAMPIONSHIP!!!

User avatar
Professor Half Wit
Posts: 2387
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:23 pm

Post by Professor Half Wit » Sun May 16, 2021 10:47 am

Kodiak wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 11:21 pm
tunch wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 8:53 pm
It's always been hard to judge dropped INT luck after watching Ike Taylor drop at least 20 and Rod Woodson drop no less than 100.
I would say almost every QB in the league gets away with at least 1 dropped pick per game. Probably more like 2.

But like you said, it's very subjective.
The fact is that Roethlisberger, relative to other QBs could have had a VERY bad interception year. If you are throwing balls into DBs hands, that's not super great. Glad lady luck smiled on BR so much.

My meager football acumen suggests to me that this is because:
1. Stupid Randy Land U shaped offense + bad o line + bad running game made offense woefully easy to predict and defend.
2. Ben was sub par with the deep ball.

Personally, I do not think Ben had this amazing year up through week 11 because the deep ball was totally MIA. On the other hand, one could argue he was absolutely amazing for keeping that utterly shit offense afloat for 11 weeks. As usual, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle between what Ben fluffers and Ben haters see.
"We're all in strung out shape. But stay frosty, and alert."

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic