Interesting stat

[StillerDownSouth]

Mike Tomlin career record without 7 at QB = 19-15-1
Belichick career record without 12 at QB = 69-78

Not saying in any way Tomlin is on Belichick's level, but maybe he isn't as great a coach as everyone thinks when 12 isn't there to save the day.

[Havoc]

Mike Tomlin career record without 7 at QB = 19-15-1
Belichick career record without 12 at QB = 69-78

Not saying in any way Tomlin is on Belichick's level, but maybe he isn't as great a coach as everyone thinks when 12 isn't there to save the day.

Good players make good coaches.

One difference is Belichick knew what to do with Brady when he had him, optimized Brady's impact.

[Quixotic]

Mike Tomlin career record without 7 at QB = 19-15-1
Belichick career record without 12 at QB = 69-78

Not saying in any way Tomlin is on Belichick's level, but maybe he isn't as great a coach as everyone thinks when 12 isn't there to save the day.

Good players make good coaches.

One difference is Belichick knew what to do with Brady when he had him, optimized Brady's impact.

He knew more than “what to do with Brady.” He knew what the other team was calling. That really makes good coaches.

[Havoc]

Mike Tomlin career record without 7 at QB = 19-15-1
Belichick career record without 12 at QB = 69-78

Not saying in any way Tomlin is on Belichick's level, but maybe he isn't as great a coach as everyone thinks when 12 isn't there to save the day.

Good players make good coaches.

One difference is Belichick knew what to do with Brady when he had him, optimized Brady's impact.

He knew more than “what to do with Brady.” He knew what the other team was calling. That really makes good coaches.

Belichick truly is fearless with balls of steel going back to his DC days with the giants.. Tomlin talks of not living in his fears oblivious to how his overall game strategy inherently is the opposite.

[Kodiak.]

Maybe it says Tomlin has had some pretty overall talented teams, and still couldn't do shit with a HOF QB in the playoffs the last 12 years.

[lifelongsteel]

Good point. Also worth noting that Ben is a top 20 all time QB (as of now). 1st ballot HOF. But he's not in Brady's class.

[Jobu]

But he's not in Brady's class.

Who is?

[lifelongsteel]

But he's not in Brady's class.

Who is?

Exactly. For years many on this board have generalized that a HOF QB is a HOF QB and that Tomlin should have performed with Ben the way that BB performed with Brady. Not the same thing at all.

[Kodiak.]

But he's not in Brady's class.

Who is?

Exactly. For years many on this board have generalized that a HOF QB is a HOF QB and that Tomlin should have performed with Ben the way that BB performed with Brady. Not the same thing at all.

Brady also wouldn't be anywhere near GOAT status if he played his entire career with Tomlin.

[Quixotic]

But he's not in Brady's class.

Who is?

Actually, we don’t know who is in Brady’s class. Would Brady be in “Brady’s class” if he didn’t have stolen plays, jammed opposing on-field communication, open communication throughout plays in his own headset, custom-inflated footballs, and a commissioner’s office destroying evidence of blatant cheating on his behalf? Sure, they were fined and lost draft picks because of cheating in years in which they won Super Bowls. But was there ever a vacated championship? Were there ever any after-the-fact forfeitures of games they won while cheating? If Brady had those wins taken away, as well as the stats from those games, would he be “Brady?” We can’t know how good he would be. But he sure wouldn’t look as good as he does.

[Jobu]

But he's not in Brady's class.

Who is?

Actually, we don’t know who is in Brady’s class. Would Brady be in “Brady’s class” if he didn’t have stolen plays, jammed opposing on-field communication, open communication throughout plays in his own headset, custom-inflated footballs, and a commissioner’s office destroying evidence of blatant cheating on his behalf? Sure, they were fined and lost draft picks because of cheating in years in which they won Super Bowls. But was there ever a vacated championship? Were there ever any after-the-fact forfeitures of games they won while cheating? If Brady had those wins taken away, as well as the stats from those games, would he be “Brady?” We can’t know how good he would be. But he sure wouldn’t look as good as he does.

I don’t disagree with any of that.
That said, the facts are that he has 7 champions in 10 Super Bowl appearances. He’s won, I believe 3 MVPs.
Would he have all that hardware playing for anyone other than Belichick and Ernie Adams? Probably not. Would Ben have close to that playing in NE during the same time? Maybe…probably!
But it is what it is…Brady is widely considered the GOAT, and nobody else comes close…whether we like it or not.

[Kodiak.]

Would Ben have close to that playing in NE during the same time? Maybe…probably!

I was thinking about that. I don't think Ben achieves what Brady does in NE, but a lot more than he did for Dumblin. And if Brady played behind Ben's OL those early years he would have failed badly. And then, as a 6th round draft pick, his career would have been pretty much done.

Now Manning, or Brees, on that NE team I could see being just as good. I could see Rodgers or Mahomes doing at least as well as Ben in PIT.

I mean, goodness, look at Ben's OC's for most of his career. Arians, who may be a great HC but had a history of getting his QB's killed as OC. Haley who's now coaching high school. Fitchner who might not be coaching anywhere....but probably still more successful than Canada.


Honestly, if not for Cowher #7 might have had a very similar career to Rivers - some good numbers and no rings.

[Quixotic]

Who is?

Actually, we don’t know who is in Brady’s class. Would Brady be in “Brady’s class” if he didn’t have stolen plays, jammed opposing on-field communication, open communication throughout plays in his own headset, custom-inflated footballs, and a commissioner’s office destroying evidence of blatant cheating on his behalf? Sure, they were fined and lost draft picks because of cheating in years in which they won Super Bowls. But was there ever a vacated championship? Were there ever any after-the-fact forfeitures of games they won while cheating? If Brady had those wins taken away, as well as the stats from those games, would he be “Brady?” We can’t know how good he would be. But he sure wouldn’t look as good as he does.

I don’t disagree with any of that.
That said, the facts are that he has 7 champions in 10 Super Bowl appearances. He’s won, I believe 3 MVPs.
Would he have all that hardware playing for anyone other than Belichick and Ernie Adams? Probably not. Would Ben have close to that playing in NE during the same time? Maybe…probably!
But it is what it is…Brady is widely considered the GOAT, and nobody else comes close…whether we like it or not.

Totally get that. And it’s really kind of a silly argument even to be having. But I don’t want the reality to die as the kinder-gentler, cover-boy NFL whitewashes Brady into Mr. All American.

I want him to wear the fact that he is not as good as his statistics, because of consistent, blatant, officially-sanctioned cheating.

I want the picture forever-blurred, the water forever muddy.

I ALWAYS want a shadow of a doubt whenever anyone declares him the GOAT. Because with a balanced scale, he is a smart quarterback, who is very coachable and highly-competitive, with a quick release and good vision. Pretty much like dozens of middle-of-the-pack NFL starters.

I’m not saying he’s no better than Peyton Manning or Drew Brees. I’m saying he may be no better than Matthew Stafford or Matt Ryan. So, not the GOAT. Not a sure-fire first-ballot Hall of Famer. Not a perennial all-pro. Maybe not a Hall of Famer at all.

We. Just. Can’t. Know. Because… *******

[Quixotic]

Would Ben have close to that playing in NE during the same time? Maybe…probably!

I was thinking about that. I don't think Ben achieves what Brady does in NE, but a lot more than he did for Dumblin. And if Brady played behind Ben's OL those early years he would have failed badly. And then, as a 6th round draft pick, his career would have been pretty much done.

Now Manning, or Brees, on that NE team I could see being just as good. I could see Rodgers or Mahomes doing at least as well as Ben in PIT.

I mean, goodness, look at Ben's OC's for most of his career. Arians, who may be a great HC but had a history of getting his QB's killed as OC. Haley who's now coaching high school. Fitchner who might not be coaching anywhere....but probably still more successful than Canada.


Honestly, if not for Cowher #7 might have had a very similar career to Rivers - some good numbers and no rings.

I agree. What made Brady such a great fit with Bill B. is that he is SO coachable. He was able and willing to study, take instruction, and DO whatever was required by the scheme. Ironically, Brady was the ultimate system quarterback. Ben—for all the things he did well—was not very coachable. He did what he did. And because he was a unicorn, a football savant, and had a rocket-launcher arm and the body of a tight end, and because he had that late game magic, it worked out, especially in the early years. But he would never have worked in New England.

[Jobu]

Would Ben have close to that playing in NE during the same time? Maybe…probably!

I was thinking about that. I don't think Ben achieves what Brady does in NE, but a lot more than he did for Dumblin. And if Brady played behind Ben's OL those early years he would have failed badly. And then, as a 6th round draft pick, his career would have been pretty much done.

Now Manning, or Brees, on that NE team I could see being just as good. I could see Rodgers or Mahomes doing at least as well as Ben in PIT.

I mean, goodness, look at Ben's OC's for most of his career. Arians, who may be a great HC but had a history of getting his QB's killed as OC. Haley who's now coaching high school. Fitchner who might not be coaching anywhere....but probably still more successful than Canada.


Honestly, if not for Cowher #7 might have had a very similar career to Rivers - some good numbers and no rings.

I agree. What made Brady such a great fit with Bill B. is that he is SO coachable. He was able and willing to study, take instruction, and DO whatever was required by the scheme. Ironically, Brady was the ultimate system quarterback. Ben—for all the things he did well—was not very coachable. He did what he did. And because he was a unicorn, a football savant, and had a rocket-launcher arm and the body of a tight end, and because he had that late game magic, it worked out, especially in the early years. But he would never have worked in New England.

So you guys think that Ben, with the answers to the test, doesn’t at least come close to matching Brady’s accomplishments? We’re gonna have to agree to disagree on that.

[Quixotic]

I was thinking about that. I don't think Ben achieves what Brady does in NE, but a lot more than he did for Dumblin. And if Brady played behind Ben's OL those early years he would have failed badly. And then, as a 6th round draft pick, his career would have been pretty much done.

Now Manning, or Brees, on that NE team I could see being just as good. I could see Rodgers or Mahomes doing at least as well as Ben in PIT.

I mean, goodness, look at Ben's OC's for most of his career. Arians, who may be a great HC but had a history of getting his QB's killed as OC. Haley who's now coaching high school. Fitchner who might not be coaching anywhere....but probably still more successful than Canada.


Honestly, if not for Cowher #7 might have had a very similar career to Rivers - some good numbers and no rings.

I agree. What made Brady such a great fit with Bill B. is that he is SO coachable. He was able and willing to study, take instruction, and DO whatever was required by the scheme. Ironically, Brady was the ultimate system quarterback. Ben—for all the things he did well—was not very coachable. He did what he did. And because he was a unicorn, a football savant, and had a rocket-launcher arm and the body of a tight end, and because he had that late game magic, it worked out, especially in the early years. But he would never have worked in New England.

So you guys think that Ben, with the answers to the test, doesn’t at least come close to matching Brady’s accomplishments? We’re gonna have to agree to disagree on that.

I don’t think Ben would have been very cooperative with Bilicheat’s coaching style. Brady at his best was a robot. That was exactly what was needed in the Bill B/Ernie Adams system.

[lifelongsteel]

Brady has been even better at TB. Is he still getting the test in advance?

I hated Brady forever. I so badly wanted Ben to be the best QB in the league and lead another Steeler dynasty. He just wasn't that guy.

[Jobu]

Brady has been even better at TB. Is he still getting the test in advance?

I hated Brady forever. I so badly wanted Ben to be the best QB in the league and lead another Steeler dynasty. He just wasn't that guy.

I never said that Brady wasn’t a great QB, not capable of winning without a little “help”. But his years in NE weren’t played on a level field…that’s a documented fact.

Ben made three SBs and won two. That’s not a dynasty, especially in the Pats era, but its pretty damn good!

[anpsteel]

Good players make good coaches.

One difference is Belichick knew what to do with Brady when he had him, optimized Brady's impact.

He knew more than “what to do with Brady.” He knew what the other team was calling. That really makes good coaches.

Belichick truly is fearless with balls of steel going back to his DC days with the giants.. Tomlin talks of not living in his fears oblivious to how his overall game strategy inherently is the opposite.

One f the many things that drives me nuts about Tomlin, is his insistence on saying “we don’t live in our fears” , but so many of the actions scream, you do.

[LakecrestSteeler]

Don’t forget the divisions. Having a cake walk every year with MIA, NYJ, Buff surely made a difference in always having home field advantage. Conversely our battles with Baltimore regularly and at times Cincinnati leaving teams banged up, and energy reserves depleted for the next game.

Nobody in the NFC East besides Patriots was formidable. MIA Wildcard flash and NYJ with Ryan as coach flashed for 2 seasons, but nothing serious!.

Then when the going got tough with Mahomes and Allen he jumped ship to the even weaker NFC.

The facts above were certainly a swing in rings by 2 to 3. Had the Steelers played in the AFC East and the Pats in the AFC Central we would have had home field advantage several more times in the playoffs, and hence a ring swing in my humble opinion.

[jewelsongs]

I have posted many times on this board that if you put Ben on NE and Brady on the Steelers, we would have won 5 or more extra Super Bowls. Brady showed he could win without Belecheat. Ben was a good QB, but Brady is a whole different level. He controls the game, starts strong and finishes stronger. He is the antidote to what ever you are trying on defense. I am old enough to remember Johnny Unitas, and saw Joe Montana starting in High School. Same with Danny Marino. They are the best I have seen, but none are as good as Brady. It sucks that they cheated us, but he is the GOAT. Giving him Ernie Adams was just not fair.

[Mick]

Brady, on rookie contract, had a lot of success with the Pats. Then he got paid franchise QB money, and Brady played much better than he did in his rookie years, but the team didn’t have anywhere near the same level of success.

Then something weird happened; around 2013 or so, Brady’s annual cap hit plummeted relative to other franchise QBs around the league, costing a little more than half what Ben costed from 2013 to 2018. And coincidentally, the Patriots were the dominant team again.

Just an observation. If Ben had been the one giving his team an extra Rob Gronkowski-sized opening in the cap instead of Brady, i think those years would have gone differently (not inverted, but when Ben had the lower cap hit of the two from 2005 to 2009 or so we did all right).

[Ice]

I was thinking about that. I don't think Ben achieves what Brady does in NE, but a lot more than he did for Dumblin. And if Brady played behind Ben's OL those early years he would have failed badly. And then, as a 6th round draft pick, his career would have been pretty much done.

Now Manning, or Brees, on that NE team I could see being just as good. I could see Rodgers or Mahomes doing at least as well as Ben in PIT.

I mean, goodness, look at Ben's OC's for most of his career. Arians, who may be a great HC but had a history of getting his QB's killed as OC. Haley who's now coaching high school. Fitchner who might not be coaching anywhere....but probably still more successful than Canada.


Honestly, if not for Cowher #7 might have had a very similar career to Rivers - some good numbers and no rings.

I agree. What made Brady such a great fit with Bill B. is that he is SO coachable. He was able and willing to study, take instruction, and DO whatever was required by the scheme. Ironically, Brady was the ultimate system quarterback. Ben—for all the things he did well—was not very coachable. He did what he did. And because he was a unicorn, a football savant, and had a rocket-launcher arm and the body of a tight end, and because he had that late game magic, it worked out, especially in the early years. But he would never have worked in New England.

So you guys think that Ben, with the answers to the test, doesn’t at least come close to matching Brady’s accomplishments? We’re gonna have to agree to disagree on that.

One of the things Brady did for those Pats teams that flies under the radar a little bit (but that will probably become a more prominent storyline should BB's career continue its current trajectory) is sell his teammates on BB's dour (sour?) personality and old-school practice and work mentality. His role as BB's ambassador and "friendly face" on those teams is severely underrated. Given Ben's sometime passive-aggression at coaches and systems he disliked, I'm not sure he could have been that guy for BB.

[Quixotic]

Brady has been even better at TB. Is he still getting the test in advance?

I hated Brady forever. I so badly wanted Ben to be the best QB in the league and lead another Steeler dynasty. He just wasn't that guy.

Really? He went into semi-retirement there, and they built a team around him basically on free agency. And he won a Superbowl. So did Matthew Stafford. Does he get a free pass to the Hall of Fame?

Given the line they bought him, the receivers they bought him, the offense they built for him, it’s a nice accomplishment. But BETTER than in NE? I just don’t think we can say that.

I’ll say it again. Looking at the body of his work and taking into account all the defacto asterisks, we don’t know how good he really is/was or isn’t/wasn’t. It’s safe to say, he isn’t/wasn’t as good as his statistics. Probably not any better than Brees or Manning. Probably not as good as Rogers, Wilson, or (dare I say it) Ben. And maybe no better than Matthew Stafford or Matt Ryan, who are competitive, coachable guys, with good vision, above average arm strength and accuracy, and a quick release.

I will say this for Brady though—he is definitely worth at least that sixth round pick.

[drmalba]

Who is?

Exactly. For years many on this board have generalized that a HOF QB is a HOF QB and that Tomlin should have performed with Ben the way that BB performed with Brady. Not the same thing at all.

Brady also wouldn't be anywhere near GOAT status if he played his entire career with Tomlin.

Give me a break...one year with Arians and he got him a ring.

[Kodiak.]

Exactly. For years many on this board have generalized that a HOF QB is a HOF QB and that Tomlin should have performed with Ben the way that BB performed with Brady. Not the same thing at all.

Brady also wouldn't be anywhere near GOAT status if he played his entire career with Tomlin.

Give me a break...one year with Arians and he got him a ring.

Tampa had everything in place and just needed a QB. Arians is a great HC, and not a pretender like LL Cool Shades.