Ukraine!

[CKSteeler]

I should add - Russia invading Ukraine in 2014 (and 2022) due to events that happened in 2004 is some A+ Level conspiracy theory thinking

Anyway, sorry to interrupt the anti-US circle jerk. Carry on.

Do you know what preceded the 2014 annexation of Crimea, Pabst? Can you take a guess?

[CKSteeler]

I should add - Russia invading Ukraine in 2014 (and 2022) due to events that happened in 2004 is some A+ Level conspiracy theory thinking

Anyway, sorry to interrupt the anti-US circle jerk. Carry on.

It's not just 2004. Do try and keep up.

I think he's entirely ignorant of the subject, but it's willful ignorance. That the CIA was involved in the Ukraine, and that we helped topple multiple pro-Russian governments over the years is pretty easy to figure out. It's not hidden. It doesn't require going to some conspiracy site. You can find agreement on this from the far left rags like The Guardian to the Cato Institute.

[ol skool]

I should add - Russia invading Ukraine in 2014 (and 2022) due to events that happened in 2004 is some A+ Level conspiracy theory thinking

Anyway, sorry to interrupt the anti-US circle jerk. Carry on.

It's not just 2004. Do try and keep up.

I think he's entirely ignorant of the subject, but it's willful ignorance. That the CIA was involved in the Ukraine, and that we helped topple multiple pro-Russian governments over the years is pretty easy to figure out. It's not hidden. It doesn't require going to some conspiracy site. You can find agreement on this from the far left rags like The Guardian to the Cato Institute.

It's either he's ignorant or legitimately bought-in re: US Imperialism, but won't admit it.

[Dan Smith--BYU]

I remember the good old days when liberals were anti-imperialist and were correct. See the Freewheelin' Bob Dylan. The hot women were mostly all on the left and now they are horrid looking and undatable. Now basically there is nothing to like about the left except as easy targets to ridicule.

[CKSteeler]

The left was never so much anti-imperialist as much as they were anti-Republican and pro-Soviet Russia.

Progressivism ushered in imperialism in the US. A Democrat has started every war we've been in until George the Lesser when the Neocons weaseled their way into power. Neocons, by the way, have their ideological roots with the progressive movement. And I guess there was the Gulf War when there was pretty much complete consensus across the political spectrum that Saddam needed to be stopped.

Conservatives in America have typically been against foreign policy adventurism. 9/11 turned some things on its head for a while.

The anti-war movement on the left was thriving for some years under Bush before vanishing once Obama came to power. Cindy Sheehan went from political darling of the left to an outcast pariah.

[Dan Smith--BYU]

And now they are calling MTG "Moscow Marjorie" simply because she believes our border ought to be a priority over Ukraine's. As if wasting billions and causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Ukranian men in a needless war is "normal" and "sane".

[langer]

Look at where we're at.

I just wonder where the progs are now.

[CKSteeler]

Well, I'm glad to see they represent the people of some nation. They sure as shit don't represent me.

[ol skool]

And now they are calling MTG "Moscow Marjorie" simply because she believes our border ought to be a priority over Ukraine's. As if wasting billions and causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Ukranian men in a needless war is "normal" and "sane".

Ackshuallllyyyy…Ukraine has lost no more than 30k men while Putin has lost 70,000,000 men in human wave attacks this month alone. Get your facts straight. Read the Kiev “Independent.”

[zeke5123]

Top of my head? Georgia, Ukraine, Syria, CAR. Russia's also been involved in the Armenia/Azeri war and continues to maintain a military presence in Moldova. There's also that time he bombed the hell out of Dagestan.

You need better sources if you list Syria. Putin was assisting the (shitty) official government in a civil war. That isn’t an invasion.

Also laughable that you think the current war is 100% Russia’s fault. The majority of the blame rests with Russia, but Ukraine has done a ton of shitty things in the disputed regions.

Russian troops are on the ground in a conflict that doesn't involve Russia. Syria counts.

And the current war is 100% Russia's fault yes

You are better than this. The original question was "how many countries did Putin invade and topple their government." You cited Syria. I pointed out that Russia neither invaded nor did it topple the Syrian government -- when the government asks you to intervene then it isn't an invasion. Responding that Russian troops on the ground in the Syrian conflict "counts" means words have zero meaning to you. If they do have meaning, then just acknowledge Syria didn't fit the criteria and move on. If not, then there is no point continuing with someone who is just willing to answer the question he wants; not the question on ask without even acknowledging the switch.

As for whose fault is the current Ukraine conflict:

1. In 2014, the Pro-Russian Ukrainian government was toppled via a western backed coup. Granted, there was almost certainly corruption with the toppled government but the same is true with the new government in place.

2. After that coup, there was a shift in Ukrainian politics that went against Russia (e.g., trying to outlaw speaking Russian). This was harmful for the eastern provinces which, along with Crimea, contained a large Russian population. The frustration turned into low level conflict for about 8 years with both sides pointing fingers at the other.

3. Kamala Harris formally stated the US wanted Ukraine -- a corrupt country with little to offer the West outside of proximity to Russia -- to join NATO. Shortly afterwards, Russia launched the war.

Now, again I put most of the blame on Russia -- they pulled the trigger. But pretending that the build up was solely one sided ignores the facts on the ground. Putin is bad, but Ukraine is no saint and neither is the US.

Yes, were better off without Qaddafi.

This is your brain on Neo-Con. The choice wasn't between Qaddafi and the resurrected George Washington. The choice was between a stable Libya under a shitty dictator or an unstable Libya under numerous shitty warlords. It at best is not obvious the latter is even as good as the former. Siding with bad people does not mean you want bad people; it acknowledges that no matter what we wish there was no good option in Libya and a bad option is better than a worse option.

One other point to flag since it often gets missed. Libya was seeking nuclear weapons in the early 2000s. The Bush administration promised not to intervene if Libya abandoned that goal. Libya did re-ignite the search for nuclear weapons nor did it attack the US. But war mongers like Hillary Clinton (who wanted a political victory) illegally attacked Qaddafi and removed him from office. What message does that send to dictators in the future? Whatever you do, lie and try to delay but never give up getting the bomb because once you get the bomb they can't fuck with you and their promises to not fuck with you if you give up the bombs means jack shit.

Hillary's folly (supported by Obama) may cause the death of millions -- it is a long tailed result of a foolish war. All so that we can go from a shitty government of a stable Libya to a unstable Libya with shitty war lords. Real win for democracy.

[zeke5123]

Look at where we're at.

I just wonder where the progs are now.

That much money for the Ukrainian border and not a cent for our border. And dont give me the "Republicans killed the border bill." That bill was just god awful.

[CKSteeler]

Should add to the above that Libya kicked off the "migrant" crisis in Europe.

[Dan Smith--BYU]

We needed another place to get bogged down in after the Afghanistan debacle.

I wouldn't even be so anti-war if the US would actually try to win one.

[langer]

Cool, the progs are now see ROOSKIES all over. Does Joe know what year it is or is he trapped in 1976 in that decayed husk of an old man melon of his?

As Hitchens said, they aren't anti-war, they are pro-war but for the other side. Lunacy, but it is in their blood.

https://x.com/stillgray/status/1783160170022875393

[Professor Half Wit]

Look at where we're at.

I just wonder where the progs are now.

That much money for the Ukrainian border and not a cent for our border. And dont give me the "Republicans killed the border bill." That bill was just god awful.

That awful bill was the most conservative proposal imaginable in recent memory and brokered by Langford. You'll likely never get anything as good going forward.

Does it feel good to be so pure and absolute in your demands in pluralistic society with differing viewpoints that requires tolerance of difference? I bet it feels amazing.

[CKSteeler]

Look at where we're at.

I just wonder where the progs are now.

That much money for the Ukrainian border and not a cent for our border. And dont give me the "Republicans killed the border bill." That bill was just god awful.

That awful bill was the most conservative proposal imaginable in recent memory and brokered by Langford. You'll likely never get anything as good going forward.

Does it feel good to be so pure and absolute in your demands in pluralistic society with differing viewpoints that requires tolerance of difference? I bet it feels amazing.

We live in a pluralistic society where the elite get what the elite want.

Most Americans oppose funding to Ukraine. Have since last August according to opinion polls. But by your logic, we are just being ideological purists for wanting the spigot cut off.

And even if most Americans wanted to send money to fund a foreign war, it isn't their money being sent over there. Any asshole who wants to fund Ukraine is free to do so with on their own dime. Hell, they're free to go over and fight. You demanding other people's money go to pay for this shit? That's kind of a different animal altogether.

[CKSteeler]

Our national debt is a bigger threat to national security than anything Russia does in Ukraine. By a long shot. It's very easy to make a case that supporting Ukraine, involvement in Ukraine, was a massive blunder that has brought us closer to the brink of WW3 than at any time during the Cold War.

We've emptied our own strategic stockpiles of various weapons and left ourselves less than mission capable to support Ukraine at the same time.

One side is fundamentally wrong on top of being an actual minority position among the voting public.

[langer]

That awful bill was the most conservative proposal imaginable in recent memory and brokered by Langford.

That is a twisted interpretation designed to get the insane warmongering Democrats psychos off the hook.

All Dems voted for it, half Republicans, major real-conservatives denounced it.

Now, it could all be a show, and give the Republicans cover, but this has all been rammed through by the left.

Have you seen how many progs are all "slava Ukarayine" and angry about Putin and displaying their blue and yellow plumage on TV and tiktok and X and with stupid flags on their houses?

I mean, I thought the GOP was MUH RUSSIA proxys for Vlad???

So confusing.

[ol skool]

Look at where we're at.

I just wonder where the progs are now.

That much money for the Ukrainian border and not a cent for our border. And dont give me the "Republicans killed the border bill." That bill was just god awful.

That awful bill was the most conservative proposal imaginable in recent memory and brokered by Langford. You'll likely never get anything as good going forward.

Does it feel good to be so pure and absolute in your demands in pluralistic society with differing viewpoints that requires tolerance of difference? I bet it feels amazing.

Yes. This was the best we could get. Sources that are called respectable by people I admire said so. And I am wise for repeating what they say.

The adult thing to do is to compromise on border security with people who don’t believe in borders (except Ukraine’s). And I am an adult who admires respectability and is on the internet the correct amount of time.

[zeke5123]

Look at where we're at.

I just wonder where the progs are now.

That much money for the Ukrainian border and not a cent for our border. And dont give me the "Republicans killed the border bill." That bill was just god awful.

That awful bill was the most conservative proposal imaginable in recent memory and brokered by Langford. You'll likely never get anything as good going forward.

Does it feel good to be so pure and absolute in your demands in pluralistic society with differing viewpoints that requires tolerance of difference? I bet it feels amazing.

Does it feel good to be so smug and just repeat talking points?

Here’s what happened:

1. The border wasn’t great under Trump but largely manageable.

2. Biden issued a bunch of EO that made a massive mess of the border.

3. The democrats then negotiated with at best a fool who created a policy that at best slowed down today the immigration flow whilst surrendering the larger immigration control to non article III judges. Basically the scheme was “Dems would give a little today for everything they want in the future.”

4. So basically Dems broke the border then said “we won’t fix it unless you give us 95% of what we want.” I’d rather roll the dice and try to get a better deal later on.

[langer]

So basically Dems broke the border then said “we won’t fix it unless you give us 95% of what we want.” I’d rather roll the dice and try to get a better deal later on.

This is their procedure outline for everything.

The communists run rings around the GOP, which may or may not be in on it, much like the Washington Generals.

Hmm, was that name used as a jab?

[CKSteeler]

Let's be clear on what our "aid" for Ukraine has accomplished:

Such triumphalism is misplaced. The package includes enough military and economic support to sustain Kyiv’s hopes for a few more months, but nowhere near enough to defeat Russian forces. Of the roughly $61 billion it allocates, $14 billion is reserved for procuring weapons for Ukraine, and it includes an additional $8 billion in financial support to help keep the Ukrainian government afloat. The bulk of the package, however, will go toward replenishing America’s own diminished military stockpiles — which will take years to accomplish — and funding its broader operations in the region.
https://responsiblestatecraft.org/ukrai ... 667871647/

They are junkies look for their next fix and we give them just enough to hold them over, prolonging a war they have no chance of winning.

We've screwed our own strategic readiness entirely for a lost cause proxy war. Russia will come out of this stronger than they were before and Ukraine will end up capitulating on their terms at some point.

[Dan Smith--BYU]

Even NPR is not excited:

https://www.npr.org/2024/04/26/12474039 ... ne-threats

[ol skool]

After announcing it would provide Ukraine the Abrams tanks in January 2023, the U.S. began training Ukrainians at Grafenwoehr Army base in Germany that spring on how to maintain and operate them. They also taught the Ukrainians how to use them in combined arms warfare — where the tanks operate as part of a system of advancing armored forces, coordinating movements with overhead offensive fires, infantry troops and air assets.

The bolded is emblematic of the problem.

These tanks were needed for the much-heralded “Spring offensive.” We didn’t start training them until Spring, which explains why the offensive was delayed til late summer.

Not only that, however. You can’t train an army to use these in mere months. Operate them? Sure. But to properly use them in combined arms warfare would take more than a year; ideally, closer to 1.5 years.

The thing is the US knows this. Ukraine knows this. So, getting these tanks served what purpose, other than PR?

All we did is give people reason to believe Ukraine could still win; that the offensive could work. You saw Pabst get a chubby over Robotinye in this very thread. He was immediately getting excited for a breakthrough and march to the Sea of Azov.

That, and we gave our puppets in Ukraine cover for sacrificing more men by the tens of thousands.

Shame on us.

Death to all neocons.