Am I the only one?

Discussions. Still no racial epithets or political campaigning. Don’t bring any of this back to the sports boards. What’s said in FFA, stays in FFA.
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COR-TEN
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Re: Am I the only one?

Post by COR-TEN » Tue May 25, 2021 8:23 pm

You highlight that most of the peaceful protests were not peaceful. Wouldn't that depend on what news outlet you read?

Most of what I've read is that 93% have been peaceful, but you deny that. What are your sources? These two sites confirm the 93%, but I'm sure they don't jive with what you've read.

https://bridgingdivides.princeton.edu/

https://acleddata.com/#/dashboard

But I guess it depends on what sources you believe. And I'll throw this in just for fun :

https://narratively.com/the-shot-in-the-eye-squad/


Arguing with idiots is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good you are, the pigeon is going to shit on the board and strut around like it won anyway.

zeke5123
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Post by zeke5123 » Tue May 25, 2021 8:32 pm

Professor Half Wit wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 9:57 pm
zeke5123 wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 6:57 pm
Professor Half Wit wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 1:00 pm


I was afraid of Trump not because he rightly attacked PC silliness. I was afraid of Trump because he made being indecent and lying some kind of political virtue. That worked out well. We now have an entire party seemingly comfortable with denying reality, at least in public.

What Trump did was defend lying and speaking irresponsibly in the name of battling PC silliness—in addition to rightly scoffing at identity politics.....by appealing to the cousin of identity politics, grievance.

So, yeah, a critical development. But we likely disagree on just what the upshot is.

Also, no one was playing fast and loose with words. We just had different ideas in mind.
Ehh Lit...Both major parties are comfortable with denying reality in public.
Didn't you once tell me degree matters?

Both parties routinely deny election outcomes in this manner?

In any case, I am heartened that you did not disagree that Trump was an irresponsible leader. Also heartened you did not deny the distinction between PC silliness and irresponsible speech.

Americans love to suppose they are independent and no one determines how they act. But, of course, the populace imitates its leadership more than it is willing to admit.
First, your statement was about Republicans denying reality and then you pivot to denying election outcomes in this manner. Your first statement was a bit broader.

Second, as for whether degree matters then I would agree yes. I just don't find what Trump did to be as large as some of the realities the Democrats denying. One example is COVID. Democrats have widely overstated the risk of COVID (see above polling data). Democrats have in contradiction to all available evidence kept kids locked out of school for the better part of a year and for those kids in school have imposed draconian measures inconsistent with guidelines issued by the WHO and UNICEF. Democrats due this because they haven't really in their policies acknowledged that COVID risk is almost entirely age dependent. That is, they ignore the facts on the ground that eg my 3 year old is not at any real risk from COVID and is also not really at risk to spread COVID. All of these policy decisions are having a direct and important impact on my kid's development (along with the millions of other kids who are missing out). Degree matters and here the Democrats have flunked the test.

Hell, Democrats were still promoting double masking (until very recently) as common sense after being vaccinated because there was a minute chance you might get COVID and even a more minute chance you might die. That is reality denying (i.e., once vaccinated, people have about the same risk factors as they did prior to COVID). And hell even on masks Democrats push against reality. CDC Europe did a literature review recently and noted that there is some evidence that surgical masks and N95s help (not a huge amount, but on the margins). But this paper noted there basically was zero evidence that cloth masks (i.e., the masks worn by most people) do a damn thing. CDC US published a criticized piece finding that masks had a ... 2% change on number of infected. An improvement? Sure. A game changer? Nope. Yet after the vaccines came out the Democrat establishment was still talking about the need to mask (apparently ignorant of the marginal at best benefits of masking). I was happy to see the Biden admin finally adopt a sensible policy (i.e., don't need to mask if vaccinated). But it took them much too long.

zeke5123
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Post by zeke5123 » Tue May 25, 2021 8:48 pm

COR-TEN wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 8:23 pm
You highlight that most of the peaceful protests were not peaceful. Wouldn't that depend on what news outlet you read?

Most of what I've read is that 93% have been peaceful, but you deny that. What are your sources? These two sites confirm the 93%, but I'm sure they don't jive with what you've read.

https://bridgingdivides.princeton.edu/

https://acleddata.com/#/dashboard

But I guess it depends on what sources you believe. And I'll throw this in just for fun :

https://narratively.com/the-shot-in-the-eye-squad/
I've seen those attempts at obfuscation. They are pretty bad. In any situation where there is violence, there are always going to be a majority of non-combatants. That is, most violent protests are "mostly peaceful." What is true is that BLM riots (excluding Kenosha) caused over a billion dollars of damage (estimates range upwards of 2 billion insured claims; likely a multiple of that). This made the BLM riots the most costly protests after accounting for inflation in history (not even including Kenosha). Judging by historically standards then if these riots were "mostly peaceful" all riots in the US are mostly peaceful.

But of course that is nonsense. This compared to other protests was not mostly peaceful. It was exceptionally destructive.

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Professor Half Wit
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Post by Professor Half Wit » Wed May 26, 2021 12:14 am

zeke5123 wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 8:32 pm
Professor Half Wit wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 9:57 pm
zeke5123 wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 6:57 pm


Ehh Lit...Both major parties are comfortable with denying reality in public.
Didn't you once tell me degree matters?

Both parties routinely deny election outcomes in this manner?

In any case, I am heartened that you did not disagree that Trump was an irresponsible leader. Also heartened you did not deny the distinction between PC silliness and irresponsible speech.

Americans love to suppose they are independent and no one determines how they act. But, of course, the populace imitates its leadership more than it is willing to admit.
First, your statement was about Republicans denying reality and then you pivot to denying election outcomes in this manner. Your first statement was a bit broader.

Second, as for whether degree matters then I would agree yes. I just don't find what Trump did to be as large as some of the realities the Democrats denying. One example is COVID. Democrats have widely overstated the risk of COVID (see above polling data). Democrats have in contradiction to all available evidence kept kids locked out of school for the better part of a year and for those kids in school have imposed draconian measures inconsistent with guidelines issued by the WHO and UNICEF. Democrats due this because they haven't really in their policies acknowledged that COVID risk is almost entirely age dependent. That is, they ignore the facts on the ground that eg my 3 year old is not at any real risk from COVID and is also not really at risk to spread COVID. All of these policy decisions are having a direct and important impact on my kid's development (along with the millions of other kids who are missing out). Degree matters and here the Democrats have flunked the test.

Hell, Democrats were still promoting double masking (until very recently) as common sense after being vaccinated because there was a minute chance you might get COVID and even a more minute chance you might die. That is reality denying (i.e., once vaccinated, people have about the same risk factors as they did prior to COVID). And hell even on masks Democrats push against reality. CDC Europe did a literature review recently and noted that there is some evidence that surgical masks and N95s help (not a huge amount, but on the margins). But this paper noted there basically was zero evidence that cloth masks (i.e., the masks worn by most people) do a damn thing. CDC US published a criticized piece finding that masks had a ... 2% change on number of infected. An improvement? Sure. A game changer? Nope. Yet after the vaccines came out the Democrat establishment was still talking about the need to mask (apparently ignorant of the marginal at best benefits of masking). I was happy to see the Biden admin finally adopt a sensible policy (i.e., don't need to mask if vaccinated). But it took them much too long.
Rather than pivoting, I was just not being clear. By denying reality, I was referring to the election.

Both parties are guilty of silliness. Now, when you say "democrats" you mean the party apparatus or do you mean teachers unions, independent school districts, city or state? Have you verified this on a case by case basis? I've been less than impressed by the CDC over the past year.

You make some really nice points here. But I confess to being more upset by the meh reaction to what is a pretty staggering norm shattering of how we deal with elections.

Give me an honest answer. Do you think there is no reason to be seriously concerned by the Republican party's reaction to the election and January 6? I'm pretty flabbergasted.
“Being a fan is fine, but there is a line you can cross that makes it really unhealthy,” said Ken Yeager, PhD, a mental health expert in the department of psychiatry at The Ohio State University Wexner Medical Center.

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COR-TEN
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Post by COR-TEN » Wed May 26, 2021 3:30 pm

zeke5123 wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 8:48 pm
COR-TEN wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 8:23 pm
You highlight that most of the peaceful protests were not peaceful. Wouldn't that depend on what news outlet you read?

Most of what I've read is that 93% have been peaceful, but you deny that. What are your sources? These two sites confirm the 93%, but I'm sure they don't jive with what you've read.

https://bridgingdivides.princeton.edu/

https://acleddata.com/#/dashboard

But I guess it depends on what sources you believe. And I'll throw this in just for fun :

https://narratively.com/the-shot-in-the-eye-squad/
I've seen those attempts at obfuscation. They are pretty bad. In any situation where there is violence, there are always going to be a majority of non-combatants. That is, most violent protests are "mostly peaceful." What is true is that BLM riots (excluding Kenosha) caused over a billion dollars of damage (estimates range upwards of 2 billion insured claims; likely a multiple of that). This made the BLM riots the most costly protests after accounting for inflation in history (not even including Kenosha). Judging by historically standards then if these riots were "mostly peaceful" all riots in the US are mostly peaceful.

But of course that is nonsense. This compared to other protests was not mostly peaceful. It was exceptionally destructive.
Then maybe you should have said they were the most costly, not mostly violent. But then again, following your logic, every single protest would have been violent if one person pushed someone or threw a bottle at police. Once. Further, I would question insurance claims, and investigate all of them because since we live in a "capitalist insurance society" where people pay high monthly premiums intended to line the pockets of insurers, everybody wants to claim as much as legally and fraudulently possible. I'd say those numbers are inflated. One aspect of corporate welfare. I'll also add you didn't provide one source for any of your assertions.
Last edited by COR-TEN on Wed May 26, 2021 10:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Arguing with idiots is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good you are, the pigeon is going to shit on the board and strut around like it won anyway.

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Post by COR-TEN » Wed May 26, 2021 3:41 pm

zeke5123 wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 6:57 pm
K_C_ wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 7:50 pm
zeke5123 wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 6:57 pm


Ehh Lit...Both major parties are comfortable with denying reality in public.
Sure they do. Riiiiiiiiight. Uh huh.

Give some Dem examples of of the same level as denying the Biden won the election in legitimate fashion.

:lol:
1. COVID. Maher showed a poll on his show where over 40% of democrats thought the odds of being hospitalized if you catch COVID were greater than 50%. The actual number? A little over 1%. That's right. 40% of Democrats oversized the risk by about 50x. That belief has led to the terrible NPI in place in Blue States whereas Red States have weathered the COVID storm much better because of a more realistic understanding of the risk. This has by far had a bigger impact compared to claiming an election was lost.

2. Killing of black people by cops. Once again, liberals (which will not necessarily Democrats are close approximate) widely overstated the number of unarmed blacks killed by police. Generally, it is around 15 in a year. For very liberal, the majority thought it was over 1,000. For just liberal, almost 40% thought it was over a 1,000. Perhaps if people had a more accurate understanding of the problem they wouldn't have burned down cities.

3. Mostly peaceful protests. Yeah right.

4. Hillary Clinton -- a rather prominent Democrat -- spent years claiming the 2016 election was stolen.

5. The Democrat party spent four years pushing a baseless claim that the Trump campaign colluded with the Russians. Despite a detailed investigation by people clearly hostile to Trump, they were unable to discover evidence supporting that baseless claim. Four years.

6. Stacey Abrams has claimed the Georgia election was stolen from her in a very Trump like fashion, and prominent Democrats have supported this claim.

You will argue I am sure with all of these claims. Just as someone could argue that the election was stolen (i.e., the smart argument isn't that it was stolen, but the change in voting procedures made it so that it opened up the possibility for borderline cheating behavior like ballot harvesting thereby rending the election illegitimate even if not illegal). But in the main they are by and large correct -- the Democrats get the basic facts wrong by blowing an issue out of proportion and it has a heavy impact. Or you know straight lying with "mostly peaceful protest."
Sources? Most conservative outlets and organizations minimize racism. Conversely, most radical liberals inflate racism and will find it in a dust ball. Like Sarah Silverman who saw swastikas in construction symbols identifying water mains . Notice I didn't use radical when describing conservatives, because the entire right wing has adopted radical trumpism and exaggeration/ lies. There aren't many moderate conservatives anymore and they are lambasted for not supporting the "big lie" even if they support celebrating losers in a civil war.

I won't bother addressing the rest of your nonsense.
Arguing with idiots is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good you are, the pigeon is going to shit on the board and strut around like it won anyway.

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Post by Professor Half Wit » Wed May 26, 2021 4:51 pm

zeke5123 wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 6:57 pm

1. COVID. Maher showed a poll on his show where over 40% of democrats thought the odds of being hospitalized if you catch COVID were greater than 50%. The actual number? A little over 1%. That's right. 40% of Democrats oversized the risk by about 50x. That belief has led to the terrible NPI in place in Blue States whereas Red States have weathered the COVID storm much better because of a more realistic understanding of the risk. This has by far had a bigger impact compared to claiming an election was lost.

My claim was about the Republican party, the elected members in office. Joe Biden wanted the schools open by the way.

2. Killing of black people by cops. Once again, liberals (which will not necessarily Democrats are close approximate) widely overstated the number of unarmed blacks killed by police. Generally, it is around 15 in a year. For very liberal, the majority thought it was over 1,000. For just liberal, almost 40% thought it was over a 1,000. Perhaps if people had a more accurate understanding of the problem they wouldn't have burned down cities.

But my point was that the Republican party is denying reality, not just Republican voters.

3. Mostly peaceful protests. Yeah right.

Well, can you show that most protests were not mostly peaceful or you just going with "Yeah right." Again, my claim was about the Republican party, the elected officials denying reality. I seem to recall Joe Biden on multiple occasions claiming that people who break the law and destroy property need to be locked up.

4. Hillary Clinton -- a rather prominent Democrat -- spent years claiming the 2016 election was stolen.

Uh hunh. And did the entire Democratic party get behind her on this? We know the answer.

5. The Democrat party spent four years pushing a baseless claim that the Trump campaign colluded with the Russians. Despite a detailed investigation by people clearly hostile to Trump, they were unable to discover evidence supporting that baseless claim. Four years.

Define colluded. My guess is that this point is more and less salient depending on how that term is stipulated.

6. Stacey Abrams has claimed the Georgia election was stolen from her in a very Trump like fashion, and prominent Democrats have supported this claim.

See numnber 4.

You will argue I am sure with all of these claims. Just as someone could argue that the election was stolen (i.e., the smart argument isn't that it was stolen, but the change in voting procedures made it so that it opened up the possibility for borderline cheating behavior like ballot harvesting thereby rending the election illegitimate even if not illegal). But in the main they are by and large correct -- the Democrats get the basic facts wrong by blowing an issue out of proportion and it has a heavy impact. Or you know straight lying with "mostly peaceful protest."
Nothing you listed is anything like nearly an entire party, from the elected officials to the part apparatus getting behind a giant lie and shamelessly going for it. Furthermore, elections are the bedrock of our political association. If you're just going to play whataboutism not interested.
“Being a fan is fine, but there is a line you can cross that makes it really unhealthy,” said Ken Yeager, PhD, a mental health expert in the department of psychiatry at The Ohio State University Wexner Medical Center.

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Post by steelerpathsofglory » Fri Nov 12, 2021 9:05 pm

There are so many things ass backwards nowadays. I certainly feel like we all should be treated equally by those in power aka the police. That doesn't mean to go out of your way to coax a response from them or to treat them like they're automatically wrong. There's good and bad police just like there are good and bad in every race around the world. I just wish people would open their eyes and see this wrong.

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