TJ Watt extension imminent...

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Re: TJ Watt extension imminent...

Post by Ice » Wed Aug 25, 2021 1:54 pm

Yeah, but Ben also brought home two Lombardi trophies. He was the burger. Brown and Bell the chips.

Worth remembering as well the offensive roster the Steelers brought to XLIII, which outside of Ben and Holmes, was as Super Bowl historically bad as the defense was good.

Brown's the statistically better player. Holmes is the historically more important Steeler.


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Post by Professor Half Wit » Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:11 pm

Ice wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 1:54 pm
Yeah, but Ben also brought home two Lombardi trophies. He was the burger. Brown and Bell the chips.

Worth remembering as well the offensive roster the Steelers brought to XLIII, which outside of Ben and Holmes, was as Super Bowl historically bad as the defense was good.

Brown's the statistically better player. Holmes is the historically more important Steeler.
By inference, everyone is the chips, including Holmes. Though I insist that AB made Ben every bit as good as Ben made AB. At their best, I cannot think of a more telepathic QB-WR duo.

It is disingenuous to say that Brown is merely better "statistically." Your eyes saw what he did.

What you can argue is that Holmes made more significant plays because of the post-season play. And here it is undeniable that Holmes made more significant plays.

Significance is not the same thing as talent.

You are right to remind what kind of talent that roster had on the offensive side. I was right to remind us how unbelievably good the defense was. And for emphasis I feel I must repeat myself: the ONLY reason the Holmes play was so euphoric, so amazing, among the best plays ever.....is because James Harrison made it matter.
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Post by Ice » Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:22 pm

I've admitted in pretty much each post that Brown had talent, was certainly fun to watch, and put up numbers. It's just, in retrospect, it was not that great a period in Ben's career in terms of winning in the post season, so if you weren't there, those numbers become kind of forgettable. I really only remember a few of Ben's big games from that stretch, either. 2004-2010? That's still where the majority of my great Big Ben memories lie.

One last point on XLIII, and then we can agree to disagree so as not to wake Swiss up prematurely (he'll be cranky): was the play at the end significant because of Harrison's TD, or because of the defensive collapse in the 4th quarter?
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Post by Professor Half Wit » Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:06 pm

Ice wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:22 pm
I've admitted in pretty much each post that Brown had talent, was certainly fun to watch, and put up numbers. It's just, in retrospect, it was not that great a period in Ben's career in terms of winning in the post season, so if you weren't there, those numbers become kind of forgettable. I really only remember a few of Ben's big games from that stretch, either. 2004-2010? That's still where the majority of my great Big Ben memories lie.

One last point on XLIII, and then we can agree to disagree so as not to wake Swiss up prematurely (he'll be cranky): was the play at the end significant because of Harrison's TD, or because of the defensive collapse in the 4th quarter?
I cannot remember ABs stats and never cared about them. I only remember a bunch of WTF plays that left my jaw hanging open. His play was the opposite of forgettable for me.
was the play at the end significant because of Harrison's TD, or because of the defensive collapse in the 4th quarter?
Surely both? The 4th quarter collapse does not diminish the importance of Deebo's play as the condition of the greatness of Holmes' catch: it enhances it. Because of that collapse, Deebo's play is THE play without which the catch does not matter precisely because the defense collapsed in Q4. And besides, why did the offense not score MORE points than it did in the second half? Only 3 in the 3rd quarter and of course only a very important 7 in the 4th? And I recall Woodley "slamming the door shut" after the Holmes catch. So many variables.

But I am not trying to diminish the Holmes catch. I am arguing that football is such a team sport and that AB played at such a high level consistently and was ALWAYS clutch (when the hell did he not deliver? when he stepped out of bounds on the Benny Hill return in the Miami game?) that he cannot in my mind be blamed for not having a chance to shine in deep post-season runs. I do not see the evidence that he himself failed to deliver and prevented the team from going on deep runs. I still can't believe he punched our ticket against the Ravens by reaching across the goal line with 3 DBS hanging on him.
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Post by COR-TEN » Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:31 pm

I also remember holmes making a catch against the ravens at the goal line after a QB scramble - and IIRC, that completed a sweep of the ravens. But As much as the TD catch in the SB was awesome, three plays or so earlier he caught a pass 10 yards downfield and proceeded to make up the rest of the 25 all on his own putting the steelers inside the red zone.
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Post by zeke5123 » Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:37 pm

COR-TEN wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:31 pm
I also remember holmes making a catch against the ravens at the goal line after a QB scramble - and IIRC, that completed a sweep of the ravens. But As much as the TD catch in the SB was awesome, three plays or so earlier he caught a pass 10 yards downfield and proceeded to make up the rest of the 25 all on his own putting the steelers inside the red zone.
I remember watching the Ravens game with college friends. My now-wife said that isn't a TD he didn't cross the line. I told her in no uncertain terms she didn't know jack about the rules. Yet she still made the poor choice of marrying me. Go figures.

Also, Holmes did a great job with the YAC but if memory serves Ben pump faked the CB to the ground on that play. Also, Holmes dropped an easier TD a play before his game winning TD.

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Post by Jobu » Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:41 pm

SteelerDayTrader wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 1:25 pm
Jobu wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 11:54 am
955876 wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 11:58 pm


Well, Houston does have 6 additional years of tread worn off his tires vs TJ.

TJ has also put out up 49.5 sacks in his first 4 seasons vs Houston’s 37.5 last 4 years.

I’ll take 6 years younger and ascending vs the soon to be 33 year old.
And there is that itsy bitsy detail that Houston plays for the Rats…

Hey here’s a good idea! Let’s trade Watt to the Rats for Justin Houston!!! Win, win. :roll:
Jobu.......you know damn well just a few short weeks ago he was a FA and signed very cheaply with the rats.....in fact he almost signed with the Steelers
Yep…a few weeks ago. He’s no longer available. Give it up.
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Post by Jobu » Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:42 pm

Ice wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 12:44 am
This year is a sneaky important one for AB's legacy.
Why?
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Post by COR-TEN » Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:43 pm

Jobu wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:42 pm
Ice wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 12:44 am
This year is a sneaky important one for AB's legacy.
Why?
I think because he did jack shit for TB in the lead up to the SB, and wasn't exactly MVP in that game either. If he's still with the Bucs, I wonder if he's going to put up the numbers he did with BR.
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Post by Jobu » Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:56 pm

COR-TEN wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:43 pm
Jobu wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:42 pm
Ice wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 12:44 am
This year is a sneaky important one for AB's legacy.
Why?
I think because he did jack shit for TB in the lead up to the SB, and wasn't exactly MVP in that game either. If he's still with the Bucs, I wonder if he's going to put up the numbers he did with BR.
I don’t know. The guy was statistically one of the best WRs in the game over a ten year career. He now has a ring to go along with the stats, even though he wasn’t really a main cog in the TB run. I think his legacy is pretty secure.
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Post by Ice » Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:11 pm

COR-TEN wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:43 pm
Jobu wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:42 pm
Ice wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 12:44 am
This year is a sneaky important one for AB's legacy.
Why?
I think because he did jack shit for TB in the lead up to the SB, and wasn't exactly MVP in that game either. If he's still with the Bucs, I wonder if he's going to put up the numbers he did with BR.
Yup, COR. Basically my point. Ben has now put up #s often sans AB, so I'm hoping AB can throw up some #s this year sans Ben. He won't lack for opportunities in that O.

Like I said earlier in the thread, was at that Xmas game vs. the Ravens. Was awesome.
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Post by jeemie » Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:59 pm

Rod & Wire Mill wrote:
Mon Aug 23, 2021 7:42 pm
The next time he makes an impact play in a game that matters will be the 1st

Historical note: This was once said of, wait for it……….Troy Polamalu!
Yep.

I remember Tom Brady eye-faking Troy out of his jock in the 2004 AFCCG
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Post by COR-TEN » Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:15 pm

Jobu wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:56 pm
COR-TEN wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:43 pm
Jobu wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:42 pm


Why?
I think because he did jack shit for TB in the lead up to the SB, and wasn't exactly MVP in that game either. If he's still with the Bucs, I wonder if he's going to put up the numbers he did with BR.
I don’t know. The guy was statistically one of the best WRs in the game over a ten year career. He now has a ring to go along with the stats, even though he wasn’t really a main cog in the TB run. I think his legacy is pretty secure.
Don't practice squad players get a ring? In my mind, him having a ring doesn't inflate his legacy at all. He played his best ball with the steelers and BR. Lets see if he's as good as advertised with another QB that won't be eye fucking him every play. He might still make amazing catches, but I've seen other less successful players make outstanding catches as well. My .02c
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Post by Jobu » Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:41 pm

COR-TEN wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:15 pm
Jobu wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:56 pm
COR-TEN wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:43 pm
I think because he did jack shit for TB in the lead up to the SB, and wasn't exactly MVP in that game either. If he's still with the Bucs, I wonder if he's going to put up the numbers he did with BR.
I don’t know. The guy was statistically one of the best WRs in the game over a ten year career. He now has a ring to go along with the stats, even though he wasn’t really a main cog in the TB run. I think his legacy is pretty secure.
Don't practice squad players get a ring? In my mind, him having a ring doesn't inflate his legacy at all. He played his best ball with the steelers and BR. Lets see if he's as good as advertised with another QB that won't be eye fucking him every play. He might still make amazing catches, but I've seen other less successful players make outstanding catches as well. My .02c
What’s your point? He’s a 33 year old WR on the backside of an outstanding career. If he doesn’t catch a pass this year, it doesn’t erase what he’s already accomplished. Jerome Bettis was a role player at the end of his career when he got his ring too.
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Post by Ice » Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:46 pm

Not sure you can really compare Bettis' contributions, emotionally and physically (I was at that Chicago game in the snow at Heinz. Bettis trucking Urlacher was awesome, as good a play and more significant in the long run than AB's Xmas miracle), to the 2005 Steelers and Brown glomming on to TB as a mercenary (and doing considerably less than Bettis in 05) cause Brady said so, but carry on...

If he's one of the greatest receivers of all time, the hardest worker on the team, keeps himself in the greatest shape, and has basically had two years without contact, why should "he's 33" be an excuse? How old's Brady?
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Post by Kodiak » Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:32 pm

Ice wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:11 pm
Yup, COR. Basically my point. Ben has now put up #s often sans AB, so I'm hoping AB can throw up some #s this year sans Ben. He won't lack for opportunities in that O.
I think Brady likes Godwin, Gronk and maybe even Evans better. AB won't be setting any records as the 3rd/4th option in that offense.
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Post by Ice » Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:37 pm

I'd like to see him at least be a solid contributor. Reports out of camp have been positive.
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Post by jeemie » Wed Aug 25, 2021 9:06 pm

COR-TEN wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:31 pm
I also remember holmes making a catch against the ravens at the goal line after a QB scramble - and IIRC, that completed a sweep of the ravens. But As much as the TD catch in the SB was awesome, three plays or so earlier he caught a pass 10 yards downfield and proceeded to make up the rest of the 25 all on his own putting the steelers inside the red zone.
Actually Ben’s pump fake made the defender guarding Holmes’ route slip.

Just sayin’
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Post by COR-TEN » Wed Aug 25, 2021 9:33 pm

jeemie wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 9:06 pm
COR-TEN wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:31 pm
I also remember holmes making a catch against the ravens at the goal line after a QB scramble - and IIRC, that completed a sweep of the ravens. But As much as the TD catch in the SB was awesome, three plays or so earlier he caught a pass 10 yards downfield and proceeded to make up the rest of the 25 all on his own putting the steelers inside the red zone.
Actually Ben’s pump fake made the defender guarding Holmes’ route slip.

Just sayin’
I didn't realize BR ran the 45 yards into the red zone as well. Just sayin' 8-)
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Post by Ice » Wed Aug 25, 2021 9:42 pm

Butler voiced concerns about ring rust on Watt going into week one in Buffalo in an interview. Possibly able to get one contact practice in before the game.
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Post by SteelerDayTrader » Wed Aug 25, 2021 11:39 pm

Sorry

Holmes will always be better than AB as a Steeler

AB was a me 1st stat whore grumpus his entire career in Pittsburgh.....that’s in addition to be a total train wreck as a teammate......
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Post by Professor Half Wit » Thu Aug 26, 2021 12:41 am

SteelerDayTrader wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 11:39 pm
Sorry

Holmes will always be better than AB as a Steeler

AB was a me 1st stat whore grumpus his entire career in Pittsburgh.....that’s in addition to be a total train wreck as a teammate......
Better "Steeler"? Sure, whatever that means. Better teammate? Probably. But not a better WR. :D
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Post by El Kabong » Thu Aug 26, 2021 12:43 am

Ice wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 12:21 am
El Kabong wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 12:06 am
SteelerDayTrader wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:31 pm


Lolz

Yeah that powerhouse Colts team was a crucial victory for us ....lol

The fact that THIS ^^^^ is your “proof” really underlines my point
Hold on. The Colts were a playoff team last year, were they not? We needed to win that game, did we not? That should count.

But okay, fine. I've never specifically paid attention to "door-closing big game-changing plays from Watt that would specifically please STD's narrow criteria" before since Watt makes SO MANY big plays during the course of games that I didn't think anyone would seriously question him, so let's pay attention during this coming season to how many Watt has.

But first, so there's no arguing after the fact, why don't you spell out for us what type of plays exactly would count? What part of the game/season does it have to be? What does the opposition have to be, what plays count, etc. Then we'll see how Watt does this season.
The Watt Watch?
The Cotch Watch did cross my mind as I typed that.
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Post by El Kabong » Thu Aug 26, 2021 12:44 am

COR-TEN wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:31 pm
I also remember holmes making a catch against the ravens at the goal line after a QB scramble - and IIRC, that completed a sweep of the ravens. But As much as the TD catch in the SB was awesome, three plays or so earlier he caught a pass 10 yards downfield and proceeded to make up the rest of the 25 all on his own putting the steelers inside the red zone.
We talk about the catch at the end so much, and rightly so, but Ben and Holmes were just great that whole drive.
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Post by Ice » Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:52 am

El Kabong wrote:
Thu Aug 26, 2021 12:43 am
Ice wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 12:21 am
El Kabong wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 12:06 am


Hold on. The Colts were a playoff team last year, were they not? We needed to win that game, did we not? That should count.

But okay, fine. I've never specifically paid attention to "door-closing big game-changing plays from Watt that would specifically please STD's narrow criteria" before since Watt makes SO MANY big plays during the course of games that I didn't think anyone would seriously question him, so let's pay attention during this coming season to how many Watt has.

But first, so there's no arguing after the fact, why don't you spell out for us what type of plays exactly would count? What part of the game/season does it have to be? What does the opposition have to be, what plays count, etc. Then we'll see how Watt does this season.
The Watt Watch?
The Cotch Watch did cross my mind as I typed that.
Perhaps with an accompanying Justin Houston comparison.
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Post by Roeth2Rudolph » Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:54 am

El Kabong wrote:
Thu Aug 26, 2021 12:43 am


The Cotch Watch did cross my mind as I typed that.
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Post by MJG75 » Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:37 am

Ice wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 1:36 pm
I'd say the 2nd Super Bowl trophy and the throw and catch that plays on pretty much every Super Bowl highlights package might have done a bit for Ben's HOF candidacy, as well. The steak and lobster of NFL fandom. The dinner at Chez Panisse.

Brown was a great regular season stat machine, from a time when the Steelers were basically regular season stat machines. The bowl of potato chips of NFL fandom. Yeah, everybody likes chips, but do you really remember them in the long run?

That whole period of Steelers football is looking more and more "meh" as it shrinks in the rear view mirror, and my lack of enthusiasm, positive or negative, for Brown, Bell, etc. shrinks commensurately.

Nice to see The Graph reprised, though, and hopefully Swiss is all good and will return once the games count.
Perfectly stated, brother. I would put my .02 in as well hoping Swiss is doing well and kicking ass somewhere. I'm also very underwhelmed by the Killer B era of Steeler football, depending on whether you track a decade as 2010-2019 or 2011-2020, I'd argue that the latter would mean that this was a worst decade than the 80s (and remember we made the playoffs 4 times in the 80s) and only marginally better with the former.

Fast Holmes (Tone) knew how to play under the big boy lights. That man had will and determination, and played with heart and passion. Trading him was one of the dumbest things ever done by our owner. It was, frankly, an embarrassment and meant only cover for the Ben situation. Speaking of Swiss, he was damn right when he said that trade was made to placate the Shadyside Bistro crowd. I have zero doubt that if Tone plays in 45, we have 7 Lombardi's in that case. Even if everything played out exactly as it did in that SB, which of course it wouldn't, if we had a WR who knew what the F they were doing, and had the balls to do it, we score on that final drive. Zero doubt.

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Post by SteelerDayTrader » Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:15 am

MJG75 wrote:
Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:37 am
Ice wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 1:36 pm
I'd say the 2nd Super Bowl trophy and the throw and catch that plays on pretty much every Super Bowl highlights package might have done a bit for Ben's HOF candidacy, as well. The steak and lobster of NFL fandom. The dinner at Chez Panisse.

Brown was a great regular season stat machine, from a time when the Steelers were basically regular season stat machines. The bowl of potato chips of NFL fandom. Yeah, everybody likes chips, but do you really remember them in the long run?

That whole period of Steelers football is looking more and more "meh" as it shrinks in the rear view mirror, and my lack of enthusiasm, positive or negative, for Brown, Bell, etc. shrinks commensurately.

Nice to see The Graph reprised, though, and hopefully Swiss is all good and will return once the games count.
Perfectly stated, brother. I would put my .02 in as well hoping Swiss is doing well and kicking ass somewhere. I'm also very underwhelmed by the Killer B era of Steeler football, depending on whether you track a decade as 2010-2019 or 2011-2020, I'd argue that the latter would mean that this was a worst decade than the 80s (and remember we made the playoffs 4 times in the 80s) and only marginally better with the former.

Fast Holmes (Tone) knew how to play under the big boy lights. That man had will and determination, and played with heart and passion. Trading him was one of the dumbest things ever done by our owner. It was, frankly, an embarrassment and meant only cover for the Ben situation. Speaking of Swiss, he was damn right when he said that trade was made to placate the Shadyside Bistro crowd. I have zero doubt that if Tone plays in 45, we have 7 Lombardi's in that case. Even if everything played out exactly as it did in that SB, which of course it wouldn't, if we had a WR who knew what the F they were doing, and had the balls to do it, we score on that final drive. Zero doubt.
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Post by Ice » Thu Aug 26, 2021 11:27 am

MJG, always a great read, and coming from someone with your historical perspective, loved the unwritten play between Fats Holmes and Fast Holmes. Preach on, sir!
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Post by Deebo » Thu Aug 26, 2021 11:56 am

Professor Half Wit wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 1:10 pm
Ice wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 12:44 am
This year is a sneaky important one for AB's legacy.
I'd say he trashed his legacy pretty badly already. But that does not mean Holmes was a better or more talented or more productive WR.

AB is clearly better.

In fact, he's responsible for cementing Ben's ticket to the Hall of Fame (and Ben likely his when it is all said and done).

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