Ukraine!

[Pabst]

What you didn’t comprehend from the get-go was that CK’s comment wasn’t an implication that the answer was zero, so your list is an answer not needed.

Since you gave us a list, I popped in to remind you that a list for the US would be far longer.

You’re the one who brought up Iraq, trying to wall-off any argument that Iraq being unjustified was license for Russia to invade Ukraine.

Nobody was suggesting it was.

But while we’re on the subject YOU brought up, I’ll absolutely argue that Russia was more justified. This isn’t non-sequitur; it’s a reply.

I'll take the US list since 2000.

Please and thanks

[zeke5123]

In the time Putin has been in power, how many nations has he invaded and governments toppled?

Top of my head? Georgia, Ukraine, Syria, CAR. Russia's also been involved in the Armenia/Azeri war and continues to maintain a military presence in Moldova. There's also that time he bombed the hell out of Dagestan.

You need better sources if you list Syria. Putin was assisting the (shitty) official government in a civil war. That isn’t an invasion.

Also laughable that you think the current war is 100% Russia’s fault. The majority of the blame rests with Russia, but Ukraine has done a ton of shitty things in the disputed regions.

[Pabst]

In the time Putin has been in power, how many nations has he invaded and governments toppled?

Top of my head? Georgia, Ukraine, Syria, CAR. Russia's also been involved in the Armenia/Azeri war and continues to maintain a military presence in Moldova. There's also that time he bombed the hell out of Dagestan.

You need better sources if you list Syria. Putin was assisting the (shitty) official government in a civil war. That isn’t an invasion.

Also laughable that you think the current war is 100% Russia’s fault. The majority of the blame rests with Russia, but Ukraine has done a ton of shitty things in the disputed regions.

Russian troops are on the ground in a conflict that doesn't involve Russia. Syria counts.

And the current war is 100% Russia's fault yes

[ol skool]

What you didn’t comprehend from the get-go was that CK’s comment wasn’t an implication that the answer was zero, so your list is an answer not needed.

Since you gave us a list, I popped in to remind you that a list for the US would be far longer.

You’re the one who brought up Iraq, trying to wall-off any argument that Iraq being unjustified was license for Russia to invade Ukraine.

Nobody was suggesting it was.

But while we’re on the subject YOU brought up, I’ll absolutely argue that Russia was more justified. This isn’t non-sequitur; it’s a reply.

I'll take the US list since 2000.

Please and thanks

What part of that list do you like the best?

The Afghanistan and Iraq parts where we “win” quickly, can’t get the locals on board with Jeffersonian Democracy after all, and leave with our tails between our legs at the cost of trillions of dollars and countless lives lost/ruined?

The Libyan part where we stabbed a cooperative Gaddafi in the back and created - exactly as he predicted - the migrant invasion of Europe?

The ongoing shit in Syria, proving we haven’t learned anything about what happens when you overthrow secular Arab strongmen?

[ol skool]

Top of my head? Georgia, Ukraine, Syria, CAR. Russia's also been involved in the Armenia/Azeri war and continues to maintain a military presence in Moldova. There's also that time he bombed the hell out of Dagestan.

You need better sources if you list Syria. Putin was assisting the (shitty) official government in a civil war. That isn’t an invasion.

Also laughable that you think the current war is 100% Russia’s fault. The majority of the blame rests with Russia, but Ukraine has done a ton of shitty things in the disputed regions.

Russian troops are on the ground in a conflict that doesn't involve Russia. Syria counts.

And the current war is 100% Russia's fault yes

Russia is winning.

Cope and seethe.

[Pabst]

The Libyan part where we stabbed a cooperative Gaddafi in the back and created - exactly as he predicted - the migrant invasion of Europe?

The ongoing shit in Syria, proving we haven’t learned anything about what happens when you overthrow secular Arab strongmen?

Fucking Christ, dude. There are literally Russian troops on the ground there and Assad is gassing his own people and you're blaming..... America.

Even granting you that, there are still more examples of Russia fucking around in world affairs than the US. So congrats, you've proved my point

[Pabst]

You need better sources if you list Syria. Putin was assisting the (shitty) official government in a civil war. That isn’t an invasion.

Also laughable that you think the current war is 100% Russia’s fault. The majority of the blame rests with Russia, but Ukraine has done a ton of shitty things in the disputed regions.

Russian troops are on the ground in a conflict that doesn't involve Russia. Syria counts.

And the current war is 100% Russia's fault yes

Russia is winning.

Cope and seethe.

500k dead Russians in a war that hasn't achieved its objectives in 2 years. Congrats.

[Pabst]

I'm sympathetic to the isolationist arguments wrt Ukraine and Israel, but if you find yourself actively siding with Putin, Assad, and Qaddafi you are either mind-numbingly stupid or are perpetually stuck in a teenage edge lord phase.

[Dan Smith--BYU]

Russia historically wins wars by ridiculous suffering and mass casualties until they exhaust the other side. I think the number in WW2 is 25 million or something. Something like 40 percent of Belarussian males died on the front fighting tanks with pitchforks. They will win by attrition and they don't care. This makes no sense until you read Russian lit and realize the insane level of sadomasochism in that society.

They will win simply because of size and number and they have never cared about casualties. It's weird to us but that's how they roll.

[Pabst]

Russia historically wins wars by ridiculous suffering and mass casualties until they exhaust the other side. I think the number in WW2 is 25 million or something. Something like 40 percent of Belarussian males died on the front fighting tanks with pitchforks. They will win by attrition and they don't care. This makes no sense until you read Russian lit and realize the insane level of sadomasochism in that society.

They will win simply because of size and number and they have never cared about casualties. It's weird to us but that's how they roll.

When Russia is fighting a defensive conflict, yes. WW2 and Napoleon come to mind.

When Russia is the belligerent (WW1, Crimean, Afghanistan) they've lost more often than not

[ol skool]

The Libyan part where we stabbed a cooperative Gaddafi in the back and created - exactly as he predicted - the migrant invasion of Europe?

The ongoing shit in Syria, proving we haven’t learned anything about what happens when you overthrow secular Arab strongmen?

Fucking Christ, dude. There are literally Russian troops on the ground there and Assad is gassing his own people and you're blaming..... America.

Even granting you that, there are still more examples of Russia fucking around in world affairs than the US. So congrats, you've proved my point

They’re there at the request and invitation of Assad, the legitimate head of state. WE are there without invitation, and helping the “Syrian” “Democratic” Forces.

Gassing his own people? You really are hopeless. That was long ago debunked.

And I didn’t list ALL the examples.

[ol skool]

Russian troops are on the ground in a conflict that doesn't involve Russia. Syria counts.

And the current war is 100% Russia's fault yes

Russia is winning.

Cope and seethe.

500k dead Russians in a war that hasn't achieved its objectives in 2 years. Congrats.

If Russia has lost 500k, Ukraine has lost eleventy-trillion. I can invent numbers, too.

[ol skool]

I'm sympathetic to the isolationist arguments wrt Ukraine and Israel, but if you find yourself actively siding with Putin, Assad, and Qaddafi you are either mind-numbingly stupid or are perpetually stuck in a teenage edge lord phase.

Are you actually going to argue we’re better off without Gaddafi? How do you look at Libya and see anything to pat ourselves on the back?

Yes, I side with Assad. Unironically. He’s the legitimate head of state, and I’d much rather have him in place as a secular dictator than the chaos that would ensue in the power vacuum post-Assad, but then again I learned a thing or two from our Iraq fiasco.

And Putin is the best leader Russia has had since Alexander III. No doubt about it. I have no beef with him. We should be cooperative with Russia; not adversarial.

[Pabst]

I'm sympathetic to the isolationist arguments wrt Ukraine and Israel, but if you find yourself actively siding with Putin, Assad, and Qaddafi you are either mind-numbingly stupid or are perpetually stuck in a teenage edge lord phase.

Are you actually going to argue we’re better off without Gaddafi? How do you look at Libya and see anything to pat ourselves on the back?

Yes, I side with Assad. Unironically. He’s the legitimate head of state, and I’d much rather have him in place as a secular dictator than the chaos that would ensue in the power vacuum post-Assad, but then again I learned a thing or two from our Iraq fiasco.

And Putin is the best leader Russia has had since Alexander III. No doubt about it. I have no beef with him. We should be cooperative with Russia; not adversarial.

Syria gas attack: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en-US& ... gws_rd=ssl

Not debunked at all

Putin has literally assassinated political opponents and other world leaders. You bitch up a storm when the US supports a Pro-Western movement in Ukraine, but don't bat an eye when Putin literally poisons their President or his own political opposition.

Yes, were better off without Qaddafi.

You're openly pro Dictator, which either makes you a contrarian dickhead or a complete idiot.

Enjoy your weekend

[ol skool]

I'm sympathetic to the isolationist arguments wrt Ukraine and Israel, but if you find yourself actively siding with Putin, Assad, and Qaddafi you are either mind-numbingly stupid or are perpetually stuck in a teenage edge lord phase.

Are you actually going to argue we’re better off without Gaddafi? How do you look at Libya and see anything to pat ourselves on the back?

Yes, I side with Assad. Unironically. He’s the legitimate head of state, and I’d much rather have him in place as a secular dictator than the chaos that would ensue in the power vacuum post-Assad, but then again I learned a thing or two from our Iraq fiasco.

And Putin is the best leader Russia has had since Alexander III. No doubt about it. I have no beef with him. We should be cooperative with Russia; not adversarial.

Syria gas attack: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en-US& ... gws_rd=ssl

Not debunked at all

Putin has literally assassinated political opponents and other world leaders. You bitch up a storm when the US supports a Pro-Western movement in Ukraine, but don't bat an eye when Putin literally poisons their President or his own political opposition.

Yes, were better off without Qaddafi.

You're openly pro Dictator, which either makes you a contrarian dickhead or a complete idiot.

Enjoy your weekend

Debunked.

https://thegrayzone.com/2023/02/03/opcw ... ackfires/

[ol skool]

Pro-dictator? No. I’m not blanket-pro/anti a particular governing structure, but go ahead and make this a black-and-white issue. I know you can’t handle nuance.

[ol skool]

I'm sympathetic to the isolationist arguments wrt Ukraine and Israel, but if you find yourself actively siding with Putin, Assad, and Qaddafi you are either mind-numbingly stupid or are perpetually stuck in a teenage edge lord phase.

Are you actually going to argue we’re better off without Gaddafi? How do you look at Libya and see anything to pat ourselves on the back?

Yes, I side with Assad. Unironically. He’s the legitimate head of state, and I’d much rather have him in place as a secular dictator than the chaos that would ensue in the power vacuum post-Assad, but then again I learned a thing or two from our Iraq fiasco.

And Putin is the best leader Russia has had since Alexander III. No doubt about it. I have no beef with him. We should be cooperative with Russia; not adversarial.

Syria gas attack: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en-US& ... gws_rd=ssl

Not debunked at all

Putin has literally assassinated political opponents and other world leaders. You bitch up a storm when the US supports a Pro-Western movement in Ukraine, but don't bat an eye when Putin literally poisons their President or his own political opposition.

Yes, were better off without Qaddafi.

You're openly pro Dictator, which either makes you a contrarian dickhead or a complete idiot.

Enjoy your weekend

Oh, you’re talking about Ghouta.

Debunked as well. Read The Dirty War On Syria

[CKSteeler]

Top of my head? Georgia, Ukraine, Syria, CAR. Russia's also been involved in the Armenia/Azeri war and continues to maintain a military presence in Moldova. There's also that time he bombed the hell out of Dagestan.

Shall I list the countries invaded and governments overthrown by the United States?

Imperialism for me, but not for thee…

Go nuts.

Problem is that wasn't the question asked. CK specifically asked how many nations Russia invaded under Putin.

Also, the US invasion of Iraq (for example) does not justify Russia's invasion of Ukraine. It's a non-sequitor.

I drew a direct comparison between the aggressive tendencies of the US versus Russia. So, the list of nations invaded by the US is entirely relevant.

One doesn't justify the other. Also, not the point being made. For one thing, where Putin has engaged in foreign policy adventurism, it has tended to be as a reaction to Western and US fuckery. Second, it's really hard to take people making some moral argument as it relates to foreign policy seriously when they turn a blind-eye to US imperialism and pretend that it is different somehow.

Any sober analysis of what has happened in Ukraine needs to start with the US fucking around in Russia's backyard. There is no invasion of Russia if America minds its own damn business.

[CKSteeler]

Yes, were better off without Qaddafi.

Ask the people of Libya if they're better off living in a wartorn hellhole.

[Pabst]

Are you actually going to argue we’re better off without Gaddafi? How do you look at Libya and see anything to pat ourselves on the back?

Yes, I side with Assad. Unironically. He’s the legitimate head of state, and I’d much rather have him in place as a secular dictator than the chaos that would ensue in the power vacuum post-Assad, but then again I learned a thing or two from our Iraq fiasco.

And Putin is the best leader Russia has had since Alexander III. No doubt about it. I have no beef with him. We should be cooperative with Russia; not adversarial.

Syria gas attack: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en-US& ... gws_rd=ssl

Not debunked at all

Putin has literally assassinated political opponents and other world leaders. You bitch up a storm when the US supports a Pro-Western movement in Ukraine, but don't bat an eye when Putin literally poisons their President or his own political opposition.

Yes, were better off without Qaddafi.

You're openly pro Dictator, which either makes you a contrarian dickhead or a complete idiot.

Enjoy your weekend

Debunked.

https://thegrayzone.com/2023/02/03/opcw ... ackfires/

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Holy shit

[Pabst]

Pro-dictator? No. I’m not blanket-pro/anti a particular governing structure, but go ahead and make this a black-and-white issue. I know you can’t handle nuance.

You're literally praising Putin and posting conspiracy websites.

Not sure why I'm wasting time on this

[Pabst]

Any sober analysis of what has happened in Ukraine needs to start with the US fucking around in Russia's backyard. There is no invasion of Russia if America minds its own damn business.

Ukrainian elected a Pro-Western government. US/EU expressed support. That is not a justification for a war

Your problem is that you've removed all agency of the Ukrainian people/government.

I say this to liberals all the time and I'm having to say it to conservatives now - The world doesn't operate around US politics.

[CKSteeler]

Any sober analysis of what has happened in Ukraine needs to start with the US fucking around in Russia's backyard. There is no invasion of Russia if America minds its own damn business.

Ukrainian elected a Pro-Western government. US/EU expressed support. That is not a justification for a war

Your problem is that you've removed all agency of the Ukrainian people/government.

I say this to liberals all the time and I'm having to say it to conservatives now - The world doesn't operate around US politics.

CIA helped stage a color revolution in the country. Acting as if the US/EU were passive observers in all of that is asinine and naive.

The election was rigged? Now go take a look at how many elections we've fucked around in across the globe, particularly in South America. We were toying around with putting Ukraine into NATO. It took over a decade of us fucking around in Ukraine for Russia to invade.

This isn't theoretical. Our leaders knew what the repercussions of screwing around in Ukraine would be. That was Russia's redline, and we crossed it. We never should have been involved in there in any way.

[ol skool]

Pro-dictator? No. I’m not blanket-pro/anti a particular governing structure, but go ahead and make this a black-and-white issue. I know you can’t handle nuance.

You're literally praising Putin and posting conspiracy websites.

Not sure why I'm wasting time on this

The guy who reads the Kiev Independent has high journalism standards.

[ol skool]

Any sober analysis of what has happened in Ukraine needs to start with the US fucking around in Russia's backyard. There is no invasion of Russia if America minds its own damn business.

Ukrainian elected a Pro-Western government. US/EU expressed support. That is not a justification for a war

Your problem is that you've removed all agency of the Ukrainian people/government.

I say this to liberals all the time and I'm having to say it to conservatives now - The world doesn't operate around US politics.

Holy shit!

[Pabst]

Any sober analysis of what has happened in Ukraine needs to start with the US fucking around in Russia's backyard. There is no invasion of Russia if America minds its own damn business.

Ukrainian elected a Pro-Western government. US/EU expressed support. That is not a justification for a war

Your problem is that you've removed all agency of the Ukrainian people/government.

I say this to liberals all the time and I'm having to say it to conservatives now - The world doesn't operate around US politics.

CIA helped stage a color revolution in the country. Acting as if the US/EU were passive observers in all of that is asinine and naive.

The election was rigged? Now go take a look at how many elections we've fucked around in across the globe, particularly in South America. We were toying around with putting Ukraine into NATO. It took over a decade of us fucking around in Ukraine for Russia to invade.

This isn't theoretical. Our leaders knew what the repercussions of screwing around in Ukraine would be. That was Russia's redline, and we crossed it. We never should have been involved in there in any way.

Um....no. Ukrainians were fed up with corruption in their government (primarily fueled by Russia) and took to the streets. CIA didn't stage it.

And again, your whining about the US/EU offering support for Pro-Western movements but don't seem to care about Putin literally assassinating opponents at home and abroad.

[Pabst]

Pro-dictator? No. I’m not blanket-pro/anti a particular governing structure, but go ahead and make this a black-and-white issue. I know you can’t handle nuance.

You're literally praising Putin and posting conspiracy websites.

Not sure why I'm wasting time on this

The guy who reads the Kiev Independent has high journalism standards.

Kyiv Independent, AP, Sky News, etc.

You're literally posting conspiracy theories from Max Blumenthal and think I look like the oddball.

Please post some shit from Alex Jones and complete the trifecta

[Pabst]

I should add - Russia invading Ukraine in 2014 (and 2022) due to events that happened in 2004 is some A+ Level conspiracy theory thinking

Anyway, sorry to interrupt the anti-US circle jerk. Carry on.

[ol skool]

Notorious conspiracy rag, Politico, weighs in:


https://www.politico.eu/article/why-ukr ... ussia-war/

[ol skool]

I should add - Russia invading Ukraine in 2014 (and 2022) due to events that happened in 2004 is some A+ Level conspiracy theory thinking

Anyway, sorry to interrupt the anti-US circle jerk. Carry on.

It's not just 2004. Do try and keep up.