Ukraine!

[Professor Half Wit]

Wisely, Washington and the young nation resisted helping France. Thank you LaFayette but no to supporting Robespierre or the monarchy. Repaid in full by the aforementioned Eisenhower june 6,1944.

Putin is a murderous thug. This is also true of hundreds of world leaders. That doesn't make Zelensky a good guy.

Wisely, Washington et al accepted France’s aid during our fight for independence.

Why are you tunnel visioned on Zelensky?

A sovereign, independent nation was unjustly invaded, war crimes abound from Russian soldiers.

Zelensky? What about the Ukrainian people?

I hope we continue to help them as long as they want it. I’m saddened by the transactional attitude by so many Americans in this. You can’t help everyone. You can help some. I don’t feel the need to say anything else on this matter.

[ol skool]

Since there’s no such thing as just Russian domination in this case, we’ll pass that one by.

Ukrainian neutrality would keep the peace. Russian control would keep the peace. US/NATO control of Ukraine will cause WW3.

Sure some fled. Whole bunch didn’t. They’re fighting and dying for their independence.

Seven million is the lowest estimate I've seen. The poor bastards who remain are fighting and dying for dependence on the US/NATO. No country's sovereignty is at stake here. No constituent part of the American Empire is truly free.

If anything, Ukrainians should be fighting Russia and the US for neutrality.

If America were invaded by a vastly superior invading force on flimsy false pretexts and there was little chance of winning, I bet you’d be willing to die.

I view the people in charge of my country as hostile to my interests. They've earned no such loyalty from me.

I don’t get this appeasement attitude.

It's realpolitik.

If the Ukrainians are willing to keep dying for a just cause THEY think is worth dying for and given how minuscule our aid is relative to our own military budget, spending and overall global foreign aid, I am willing to keep supporting the Ukrainians.

Yes. Let's fight the Russians down to the last Ukrainian.

You think America defeats the British without French aid? I bloody fucking don’t.

We were fighting for actual independence.

[ol skool]

Dwight Eisenhower:

1. Don't fight unless you absolutely must.
2. Don't fight alone.
3. Get it over with quickly.

He warned us in 1961 but, ah fuck it, we decided we'd go John McCain national masochism forever.

with thoroughly modern Milley as the leader

If the goal is Crimea, why did we cede that without a fight in 2014?

Cue Alfred Lord Tennyson...

Oh, I absolutely believe that was a huge fuck up. Putin waltzed in. Nothing happened. He must have been like shit, this is great. Let’s go get the rest! Here we are.

Obama also fucked up by pussying out on the red line. I was irate over it.

I’m not into exporting democracy to folks who don’t want it or nation building.

I'm sorry, but how can you say you're not into exporting democracy to folks who don't want it or nation building and be mad at Obama for not invading Syria?

[Dan Smith--BYU]

https://www.mountvernon.org/library/dig ... et-affair/

We were a lot more practical then, and it would be good to get back to that. Adams warned against chasing monsters on foreign soil.

[ol skool]

Which side in revolutionary France? Coz, fuck them all really.

DEs advice follows because there is no way to win quickly and no pressing US interest.

Setting aside without France’s help we’re British (that’s what I meant about advising France: France gave us military aid without which we don’t win independence) the US undergoes zero pain from supporting Ukraine. The amount and kind of aid we’re giving amounts to nothing relative to our totally foreign aid and overall military spending. Nor is our aid sone misguiding neocon adventure in trying impose democracy on some population that doesn’t want it.

Putin is a delusional immoral thug. If the Ukrainians want to continue dying for independence from unjust aggression, I hope we continue to support them.

They're dying to become part of an empire. I will not stop pointing this out.

The only possibility of Ukraine enjoying any sovereignty would be permanent neutrality. The same applies to any of our current vassals.

[ol skool]

I hope we continue to help them as long as they want it. I’m saddened by the transactional attitude by so many Americans in this. You can’t help everyone. You can help some. I don’t feel the need to say anything else on this matter.

We'd be living in a better world if we would have disbanded NATO at the end of the Cold War.

But, no. We just had to go on playing empire.

[Dan Smith--BYU]

https://thegrayzone.com/2023/08/21/neoc ... rever-war/

Funny how the left just morphed into Bill Kristol and the National Review warhawks simply because it seemed anti-Trump. They flipped on the vax for the same reason even though Trump made it possible. There's no thinking going on with them just a gag reflex.

[ol skool]

https://thegrayzone.com/2023/08/21/neoc ... rever-war/

Funny how the left just morphed into Bill Kristol and the National Review warhawks simply because it seemed anti-Trump. They flipped on the vax for the same reason even though Trump made it possible. There's no thinking going on with them just a gag reflex.

Neocons were Trotskyists before they were Republican Party war hawks. They were never conservative on social issues. It's all interventionist foreign policy for them.

I know Kristol is still fighting to un-Trump the GOP, but don't be surprised if they formally leave and become Democrats. Their foreign policy is (and always has been) welcomed there, too.

But yes, it was remarkable observing how many left-wing shibboleths you could get them to eschew by associating X with Trump or Y with opposition to Trump.

Hell, it even made Tom Morello reveal that he's not actually some edgy, radical anarcho-commie; he's just a Democrat. Kinda takes something out of listening to old Rage Against The Machine songs.

[Professor Half Wit]

https://thegrayzone.com/2023/08/21/neoc ... rever-war/

Funny how the left just morphed into Bill Kristol and the National Review warhawks simply because it seemed anti-Trump. They flipped on the vax for the same reason even though Trump made it possible. There's no thinking going on with them just a gag reflex.

I thought invading Iraq was moronic. Was against it from the get go.

I was totally on board invading Afghanistan, tho that was a disaster.

My position on Ukraine has zilch to do with Trump for what that’s worth.

And Trump does get credit for vax.

The problem with “they” and “them” talk is that it almost guarantee’s stereotyping. Might feel good to talk that way, but it’s not helpful.

[Dan Smith--BYU]

Yeah Tom Morello is pretty much spending his gray years raging for the machine, especially Pfizer. What a putz.

I appreciated the nuance, Lit, but in reviewing all the US wars in my lifetime, its just a complete disaster and nothing is ever learned. For all that money and blood are we safer than Costa Rica or Switzerland? Even the "clear victory" in Desert Storm set the stage for 9/11.

We should listen less to Bill Kristol and Joe Biden and more to Washington and Eisenhower. In other words, follow the winners (yeah I know Washington was like 2-9 in battles but won the war of attrition). Another example we didn't learn from.

[COR-TEN]

A couple of you here sound like you wouldn’t have been able to find Ukraine on a map prior to 2014

[Professor Half Wit]

Yeah Tom Morello is pretty much spending his gray years raging for the machine, especially Pfizer. What a putz.

I appreciated the nuance, Lit, but in reviewing all the US wars in my lifetime, its just a complete disaster and nothing is ever learned. For all that money and blood are we safer than Costa Rica or Switzerland? Even the "clear victory" in Desert Storm set the stage for 9/11.

We should listen less to Bill Kristol and Joe Biden and more to Washington and Eisenhower. In other words, follow the winners (yeah I know Washington was like 2-9 in battles but won the war of attrition). Another example we didn't learn from.

It sounds ridiculous even to say out loud (bc it’s so obvious and human life is precious) that war is something that should be entered only with grave reservation combined with overwhelming reasons to do so (reservation bc you never know how it’s going to go).

But I would submit the US and NATO are not at war and not planning to occupy or put troops in the field. That’s never going to happen unless Putin decides to fuck around with NATO borders and find out. The US and NATO are giving support to a nation unjustly and cruelly invaded that wants our help. And considering the percentage of aid the US is giving compared to its total foreign aid and military budget, this is not some huge sacrifice.

So I say again: given the circumstances, I hope we continue to support Ukraine in its efforts to remain a free, independent nation as long as the Ukrainian people want it.

I’m very disappointed by the polling on this issue among Republicans.

Who cares what Bill Kristol thinks. This is pretty cut and dry as far as what’s right goes, to my eye.

[Dan Smith--BYU]

We may already have boots on the ground:

https://summit.news/2023/09/03/a-dire-w ... ig-israel/

Cor-ten's inane comment is particularly laughable given the level of geographic detail that ol skool has provided. Has anyone here been to the Black Sea or Russia? I have and when it was the Soviet Union.

[Professor Half Wit]

We may already have boots on the ground:

https://summit.news/2023/09/03/a-dire-w ... ig-israel/

Cor-ten's inane comment is particularly laughable given the level of geographic detail that ol skool has provided. Has anyone here been to the Black Sea or Russia? I have and when it was the Soviet Union.

Oh, I don’t doubt we have CIA and special forces on the ground as advisories and likely have done since very early on.

Notice that the article you link treats the Ukrainians as infants who are just US puppets as opposed to an independent people voluntarily choosing to risk their lives. Framing this as Washington / liberal elites wasting Ukrainian lives is an editorial value judgement that is not a little insulting to the Ukrainians. Frankly, I find it gross.

Were US revolutionary militia and troops merely tools of the French (US) who hated the British (Russia)? I think fucking not!

[Dan Smith--BYU]

"Were US revolutionary militia and troops merely tools of the French (US) who hated the British (Russia)? I think fucking not!"

They weren't "merely" tools, but yes they were tools in the sense that France could use the US to its advantage over Britain.

BTW Lafayette was later persecuted by the French revolutionaries, which is a good cautionary lesson for all current liberals supporting the radical left today. You're never pure enough.

[Professor Half Wit]

"Were US revolutionary militia and troops merely tools of the French (US) who hated the British (Russia)? I think fucking not!"

They weren't "merely" tools, but yes they were tools in the sense that France could use the US to its advantage over Britain.

BTW Lafayette was later persecuted by the French revolutionaries, which is a good cautionary lesson for all current liberals supporting the radical left today. You're never pure enough.

Indeed, not merely tools. US needed the aid, would have lost without it, and gladly took it. The colonists weren’t French puppets. The notion that the Ukrainians are just stooges for liberal and neocon elites is a pitch of absurdity so high one is barely able to hear it.

Reading always best, but Mike Duncan’s season on the French Revolution on his Revolutions podcast is outstanding. Duncan wrote a book on Lafayette, too.

Put me in the camp of the Girondists.

[Dan Smith--BYU]

They loved the colonists so much they fought against them 20 years earlier in the French and Indian War. These same people whose brothers they killed had value to the French once they were a threat to Britain.

BTW I think the French had a valid beef since English North America was heading West into their and the Natives territory.

https://twitter.com/Rickster_75/status/ ... ukrainians

I see nothing morally good about sending misld people on Pickett's charge because they are willing to take a bullet.

[Professor Half Wit]

They loved the colonists so much they fought against them 20 years earlier in the French and Indian War. These same people whose brothers they killed had value to the French once they were a threat to Britain.

BTW I think the French had a valid beef since English North America was heading West into their and the Natives territory.

https://twitter.com/Rickster_75/status/ ... ukrainians

I see nothing morally good about sending misld people on Pickett's charge because they are willing to take a bullet.

Is that for you or for the Ukrainians to decide? Again: you say “sending misled people” as if WE were directing them and as if they are not clear eyed. I assume they are not children. I assume many are willing to die so that their country may be free. Some might even call the willingness to die for your country in the face of very bad odds patriotism.

I do not say the French loved the colonies. I say the colonists would have lost without French aid.

Courage (a moral virtue) used to be defined as the disposition from out of which one voluntarily risks one’s life for the sake of what is beautiful in situations where failure and death are a real possibility. Americans of all peoples I would think would identify freedom as beautiful.

[ol skool]

But I would submit the US and NATO are not at war and not planning to occupy or put troops in the field.

It's a proxy war. Is this a new term to you, or have you heard it before? We've been involved in many in our history.

As for the latter part of your statement, circumstances might still lead to that. The counteroffensive has failed, and what we don't know is whether the Russians will be content with the status quo, or go on an offensive of their own.

Imagine a rosy (for the Russians) scenario in which they do the latter, and force a mass withdrawal of Ukrainian forces in the east back to the west across the Dnieper River. Would the US/NATO get directly involved then? I tend to think they would, and who knows how that would go?

So I say again: given the circumstances, I hope we continue to support Ukraine in its efforts to remain a free, independent nation as long as the Ukrainian people want it.

No country in NATO or the EU is free or independent.

Who cares what Bill Kristol thinks.

Joe Biden, Anthony Blinken, and Victoria Nuland, for starters.

Oh, I don’t doubt we have CIA and special forces on the ground as advisories and likely have done since very early on.

Reminds one of Viet Nam.

Were US revolutionary militia and troops merely tools of the French (US) who hated the British (Russia)? I think fucking not!

If they were fighting to become part of the French Empire, they would indeed be tools. Instead, they fought to actually govern themselves. That's the key distinction.

Courage (a moral virtue) used to be defined as the disposition from out of which one voluntarily risks one’s life for the sake of what is beautiful in situations where failure and death are a real possibility. Americans of all peoples I would think would identify freedom as beautiful.

It's beautiful when that freedom is real and exercised. We're not even a free people ourselves, but perhaps that's for another thread...

[Professor Half Wit]

But I would submit the US and NATO are not at war and not planning to occupy or put troops in the field.

It's a proxy war. Is this a new term to you, or have you heard it before? We've been involved in many in our history.

As for the latter part of your statement, circumstances might still lead to that. The counteroffensive has failed, and what we don't know is whether the Russians will be content with the status quo, or go on an offensive of their own.

Imagine a rosy (for the Russians) scenario in which they do the latter, and force a mass withdrawal of Ukrainian forces in the east back to the west across the Dnieper River. Would the US/NATO get directly involved then? I tend to think they would, and who knows how that would go?

So I say again: given the circumstances, I hope we continue to support Ukraine in its efforts to remain a free, independent nation as long as the Ukrainian people want it.

No country in NATO or the EU is free or independent.

Who cares what Bill Kristol thinks.

Joe Biden, Anthony Blinken, and Victoria Nuland, for starters.

Oh, I don’t doubt we have CIA and special forces on the ground as advisories and likely have done since very early on.

Reminds one of Viet Nam.

Were US revolutionary militia and troops merely tools of the French (US) who hated the British (Russia)? I think fucking not!

If they were fighting to become part of the French Empire, they would indeed be tools. Instead, they fought to actually govern themselves. That's the key distinction.

Courage (a moral virtue) used to be defined as the disposition from out of which one voluntarily risks one’s life for the sake of what is beautiful in situations where failure and death are a real possibility. Americans of all peoples I would think would identify freedom as beautiful.

It's beautiful when that freedom is real and exercised. We're not even a free people ourselves, but perhaps that's for another thread...

I know what a proxy war is, thanks. You’re still dismissing the reality that the Ukrainians have to go along with it, kinda like our colonies did. What do you think France was doing by backing our colonies? FFS.

You and Dan are welcome to your opinions, obviously. I’m not at all convinced by what you’re trying to argue. I see a people struggling against unjust aggression to remain free. And that’s a beautiful goal. You can see what you wish, too.

[Dan Smith--BYU]

Honestly, what US war in our lifetime has worked out well for us? I'm assuming you're not 90.

Vietnam--fall of Saigon, 13 year slog, but libs cared about that one because of the draft.
Desert Storm--apparent win but blowback led to 9/11 and Bush lost the election anyway
Iraq-- forever slog and we didn't even take the oil, and false intel
Afgh--2 decade slog and humiliation by goat herders with RPGs in Toyota pickups

Kosovo and Bosnia were humanitarian rescues due to dismal failure of UN.

Honestly best military move in my life was Reagan turning tail in Lebanon after disaster. Sometimes you win by getting the hell out.
And at least Grenada led to the funny Bill Hader puppet sketch on SNL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xZ52mG ... yNightLive

I would feel safer in Costa Rica who doesn't have an army, yet still protect borders.

[Professor Half Wit]

Honestly, what US war in our lifetime has worked out well for us? I'm assuming you're not 90.

Vietnam--fall of Saigon, 13 year slog, but libs cared about that one because of the draft.
Desert Storm--apparent win but blowback led to 9/11 and Bush lost the election anyway
Iraq-- forever slog and we didn't even take the oil, and false intel
Afgh--2 decade slog and humiliation by goat herders with RPGs in Toyota pickups

Kosovo and Bosnia were humanitarian rescues due to dismal failure of UN.

Honestly best military move in my life was Reagan turning tail in Lebanon after disaster. Sometimes you win by getting the hell out.
And at least Grenada led to the funny Bill Hader puppet sketch on SNL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xZ52mG ... yNightLive

I would feel safer in Costa Rica who doesn't have an army, yet still protect borders.

I’m just really confused by this response since the US and NATO clearly aren’t going to commit troops (aside from CIA and special ops advisories I assume are hush hush in the field). That’s just not going to happen.

For the last few posts you have emphasized that the US can’t be stupidly rushing into a war not absolutely vital to its interests.

I agree. And track record isn’t good. (Makes one wonder whether Presidential executive order 12333 was such a good idea.)

What has that to do with the US and NATO countries supporting Ukraine, which clearly wants the support? The US is not going to war. Unless Putin is stupid enough to cross NATO borders in which case things ante going to get very ugly, but catastrophic ugly for Russia. And this isn’t some clandestine boondoggle or picking sides within a single nation in turmoil or in a civil war. Ukraine was unjustly invaded by a delusional psychopath who thinks he’s Catherine or Peter the Great rebuilding empire. And committing god knows how many civilian atrocities along the way.

I hope we continue to support Ukraine as long as they are willing to keep fighting for their independence. It’s a just and beautiful cause.

[ol skool]

For the last few posts you have emphasized that the US can’t be stupidly rushing into a war not absolutely vital to its interests.

I agree. And track record isn’t good. (Makes one wonder whether Presidential executive order 12333 was such a good idea.)

What has that to do with the US and NATO countries supporting Ukraine, which clearly wants the support?

We’re pursuing the geopolitical goal of hurting Russia without putting American lives at risk. While this is not the same as what we did in Viet Nam, Iraq, etc., the difference is, from a moral standpoint, our involvement is comparatively cowardly.

When you add to that the fact that the war isn’t winnable for Ukraine (by Zelensky’s own standard of what a peace settlement would look like), the fact that we continue to pursue our ends anyway makes our “fighting Russia down to the last Ukrainian” utterly reprehensible.

The US is not going to war. Unless Putin is stupid enough to cross NATO borders in which case things ante going to get very ugly, but catastrophic ugly for Russia.

It would be catastrophic for both. When Putin says a world without Russia isn’t one worth living in, I don’t think he’s bluffing.

I hope we continue to support Ukraine as long as they are willing to keep fighting for their independence. It’s a just and beautiful cause.

They’re fighting for US/NATO vassalage. They are the pawns on this particular chessboard. It’s sick.

[Professor Half Wit]

For the last few posts you have emphasized that the US can’t be stupidly rushing into a war not absolutely vital to its interests.

I agree. And track record isn’t good. (Makes one wonder whether Presidential executive order 12333 was such a good idea.)

What has that to do with the US and NATO countries supporting Ukraine, which clearly wants the support?

We’re pursuing the geopolitical goal of hurting Russia without putting American lives at risk. While this is not the same as what we did in Viet Nam, Iraq, etc., the difference is, from a moral standpoint, our involvement is comparatively cowardly.

When you add to that the fact that the war isn’t winnable for Ukraine (by Zelensky’s own standard of what a peace settlement would look like), the fact that we continue to pursue our ends anyway makes our “fighting Russia down to the last Ukrainian” utterly reprehensible.

The US is not going to war. Unless Putin is stupid enough to cross NATO borders in which case things ante going to get very ugly, but catastrophic ugly for Russia.

It would be catastrophic for both. When Putin says a world without Russia isn’t one worth living in, I don’t think he’s bluffing.

I hope we continue to support Ukraine as long as they are willing to keep fighting for their independence. It’s a just and beautiful cause.

They’re fighting for US/NATO vassalage. They are the pawns on this particular chessboard. It’s sick.

Uh, they're fighting for their independence. It's a righteous cause. IF their independence aligns with US and NATO interests, so much the better. And even if you're right, US vassalage is helluvalot better than Russian vassalage. If you disagree, go on and move to Russia. I disagree with the premise entirely in the first, place, tho.

I'm sure as hell happy Ben Franklin had the ear of the French and not you.

Finally, do you see any purpose in us continuing to engage each other on this? You're mind is made up. My mind is made up. Our fundamental assumptions from which we're deriving our interpretations are at odds and neither is going to move.

[Dan Smith--BYU]

I think ol skool and I are puzzled by how much liberals and the left have abandoned anti-war politics, one issue they have been historically correct on after WW2. It's also tragic that DDEs farewell address has been trumped by mindless McCain types. Looks like all that anti-war stuff in the sixties was just narcissistic and not humane, and only because of the draft. If it's someone else, fuck em and load up on Lockheed options I guess.

[ol skool]

Uh, they're fighting for their independence. It's a righteous cause. IF their independence aligns with US and NATO interests, so much the better. And even if you're right, US vassalage is helluvalot better than Russian vassalage. If you disagree, go on and move to Russia. I disagree with the premise entirely in the first, place, tho.

You're hedging and contradicting yourself a bit.

If I'm right, your fundamental premise and admiration for the beauty of their fight for freedom are an illusion. That is no small thing.

Move to Russia? You're gonna resort to "love her or leave her"? You're better than that.

I'm sure as hell happy Ben Franklin had the ear of the French and not you.

And again, Ben Franklin's aim was not to become a French vassal.

Finally, do you see any purpose in us continuing to engage each other on this? You're mind is made up. My mind is made up. Our fundamental assumptions from which we're deriving our interpretations are at odds and neither is going to move.

That's your call, but you are again wrong. My mind is not made up. I may just be in the unhappy position of not yet being reasoned out of the position I reasoned myself into.

It's frustrating reading online discourse and talking to people (not lumping you in here, particularly) who think this counteroffensive is working, the Ghost of Kiev was real and that Sarah Ashton-Cirillo is a woman.

How can we get to the truth when talking to people who believe lies? This is an even tougher task when you have every outlet of western propaganda daily reinforcing the lies and telling the believers of the lie how good and moral they are.

Am I crazy, or was it not always like this? Is it so out-of-the-question to have the presentation of both (or multiple) sides of the issues of the day, including this war? Would it not be good to have these points-of-view discussed and countered on news talk shows and in the Opinion section of your paper?

There IS a Russian perspective, and most Americans don't know it. There IS a differing Russian account of how the war is going, and most Americans don't know it. Not only do they not know it, they don't even want to hear it; as if they're going to be infected by a Russian mind virus. News outlets from every political stripe in your narrow window of allowable discourse are proud to be doing their part to protect these feeble Americans from the Current Most Evil Person Alive, which is not their fucking job.

[Dan Smith--BYU]

i would love it if there was evidence that Ukraine could win this next month and that Crimea would be part of Ukraine. However, I do not live in Fantasyland.

Part of living in Fantasyland in 2023 is still trusting "experts" and the press who are obviously paid flying monkeys:

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/mit ... ls-doctors

The US taking this on after losing to the goat herd pickup truck brigade is like a beer league softball team taking on the Braves or Astros. Or even the Pirates.

Except it's even dumber because MLB teams don't have nukes.

https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1 ... d-n2386851

[Professor Half Wit]

Uh, they're fighting for their independence. It's a righteous cause. IF their independence aligns with US and NATO interests, so much the better. And even if you're right, US vassalage is helluvalot better than Russian vassalage. If you disagree, go on and move to Russia. I disagree with the premise entirely in the first, place, tho.

You're hedging and contradicting yourself a bit.

If I'm right, your fundamental premise and admiration for the beauty of their fight for freedom are an illusion. That is no small thing.

Move to Russia? You're gonna resort to "love her or leave her"? You're better than that.

I'm sure as hell happy Ben Franklin had the ear of the French and not you.

And again, Ben Franklin's aim was not to become a French vassal.

Finally, do you see any purpose in us continuing to engage each other on this? You're mind is made up. My mind is made up. Our fundamental assumptions from which we're deriving our interpretations are at odds and neither is going to move.

That's your call, but you are again wrong. My mind is not made up. I may just be in the unhappy position of not yet being reasoned out of the position I reasoned myself into.

It's frustrating reading online discourse and talking to people (not lumping you in here, particularly) who think this counteroffensive is working, the Ghost of Kiev was real and that Sarah Ashton-Cirillo is a woman.

How can we get to the truth when talking to people who believe lies? This is an even tougher task when you have every outlet of western propaganda daily reinforcing the lies and telling the believers of the lie how good and moral they are.

Am I crazy, or was it not always like this? Is it so out-of-the-question to have the presentation of both (or multiple) sides of the issues of the day, including this war? Would it not be good to have these points-of-view discussed and countered on news talk shows and in the Opinion section of your paper?

There IS a Russian perspective, and most Americans don't know it. There IS a differing Russian account of how the war is going, and most Americans don't know it. Not only do they not know it, they don't even want to hear it; as if they're going to be infected by a Russian mind virus. News outlets from every political stripe in your narrow window of allowable discourse are proud to be doing their part to protect these feeble Americans from the Current Most Evil Person Alive, which is not their fucking job.

You mean a Putin perspective. You say Ukraine is fighting to become a US vassal. You have HARD evidence for that or just a world-order theory?

[Professor Half Wit]

i would love it if there was evidence that Ukraine could win this next month and that Crimea would be part of Ukraine. However, I do not live in Fantasyland.

Part of living in Fantasyland in 2023 is still trusting "experts" and the press who are obviously paid flying monkeys:

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/mit ... ls-doctors

The US taking this on after losing to the goat herd pickup truck brigade is like a beer league softball team taking on the Braves or Astros. Or even the Pirates.

Except it's even dumber because MLB teams don't have nukes.

https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1 ... d-n2386851

If the US were invaded by some awful regime and there was little hope of winning, I bet you'd die fighting. I'd like to think I would. This isn't fantasyland. It's about what is worth dying for.

I return to my comment about courage (a MORAL virtue before post-modernity destroyed virtue in favor of consequentialism as the only adequate coin of the realm) made a few posts back.

US is not making some huge sacrifice helping Ukraine in its noble cause.

I'll say this only one more time: it's not for YOU to decide when enough is enough. That's for the SOVEREIGN nation (sorry Putin) of Ukraine to decide.

I hope we continue to provide aid to Ukraine in its desperate attempt to remain an independent nation for as long as UKRAINE wants it.

[ol skool]

You mean a Putin perspective.

I mean a Russian perspective.

You say Ukraine is fighting to become a US vassal. You have HARD evidence for that or just a world-order theory?

What sort of evidence would you consider "hard"?

Can you give me an example of a NATO country in Europe that enjoys all the trappings of sovereignty? If not, what's the word for a less-than-sovereign country whose status quo exists by the grace of a more powerful country?

Hell, I'd even argue that Mexico isn't a free country. When there was talk of Mexico joining BRICS, which a sovereign country ought to be able to decide to do, if it pleases, I started seeing articles about the possibility of the US invading Mexico. Funny, isn't it?