Defense around the league

[anpsteel]

Watching today’s games -

sweat fancy Moses

It isn’t just the Steelers

no one can play defense AMD no one tackles


just flipping terrible tackling

[CKSteeler]

This is a real down year league wide. There's no juggernaut who can't be beat or even some team that just consistently pulls it out. Money has to be on the Chiefs or Eagles to ultimately rise to the top again.

The issue isn't that the defensive issues are innately isolated to the Steelers (though Tomlin has set some pretty dubious records), it's that this is a team that prides itself on defense and which has invested more into it than any other team in the league. If you are going to have that sort of lopsided spending, you damn well better be getting something out of it.

Rodgers and Rodgers alone has steadied this offense, but he can only cover up so much particularly at his age.

I'd also highlight that it isn't that the Steelers defense has bad days, but that they collapse time and time again when it matters most. And it's been in spectacular fashion. 300 yards on the ground? Getting your shit pushed in by the Blake Bortles led Jaguars? Getting hammered by a team whose head coach is sitting at home with covid? It goes back to Tim Tebow and playing cover 0 in OT despite him throwing over top of your defense all day long when it counted.

The bottom never quite falls out of this defense, but *everything* on this team is geared around that defense and always has been. Even during the Killer B era. That's how Tomlin wants it. If that's how you want to compete, you need to be far better at it.

[Steeldrama]

Yep

Giants just gave up 33 4 quarter points to Bo Nix and the Broncos

Tough last second loss for the wicked fun Jaxson Dart
Don’t know if I’ve ever seen a rookie qb with that much give a damn

[K_C_]

I don't know how Mike McDaniel survives that brutal ass beating by the Browns.

Tua (who absolutely, positvely SUCKS COCK) will have gotten his second coach fired.

Brian Flores was right about Tua. The guy is awful.

[jeemie]

Coaching ineptitude is not only limited to Mike Tomlin.

Today Kevin O'Connell went for it on 4th and 2 with a little over three minutes left and his team trailing the Eagles 28-19.

Now they made the first down but eventually wasted another minute or so before finally kicking a FG to cut it to six.

Now they HAVE to make a stop or the game is over...and of course they don't make the stop.

How many coaches is this now that I've seen get sucked into the "I need a TD and FG to tie/win, and I have to get the TD FIRST" mindset, and then not leave themselves enough time to get both of them anyway?

Now the Vikings had a hard time punching it in all day, so O'Connell was doubly tempted to go for the TD when he got close.

But damn it's like none of these coaches practices end game scenarios so they can be ready when the real game happens.

[CKSteeler]

I think the FG and TD scenario to tie scenario depends on how much time is left and the situation. If I'm very close and have been struggling all day, I'd rather go for the TD first if it's a makable first down while time is on my side. A two minute drill needing a FG is a lot less stressful than a TD.

You kick the FG, you still need to make a stop, anyway. So I don't get your logic there.

[Dan Smith--BYU]

I don't think coaches in general have adapted to how the new kickoff rules affect end game time management.

Getting from the 30 to the 40 on the other side is pretty manageable in 2 minutes or less and these kickers now make 57 yard FGs like its nothing.

Yeah, I knew they were kinda fucked when Muth crossed the goal line.

Wouldn't have felt that way at all before these new kickoff rules.

I'd like to see the expected value math on this with recent updates.

[CKSteeler]

I don't think coaches in general have adapted to how the new kickoff rules affect end game time management.

Getting from the 30 to the 40 on the other side is pretty manageable in 2 minutes or less and these kickers now make 57 yard FGs like its nothing.

Yeah, I knew they were kinda fucked when Muth crossed the goal line.

Wouldn't have felt that way at all before these new kickoff rules.

I'd like to see the expected value math on this with recent updates.

I think teams are getting too cute with it and risking fucking themselves over. We've seen multiple examples of teams trying to pin teams back in end game scenarios only to screw up and give them the ball at the 40.

[Dan Smith--BYU]

"I think teams are getting too cute with it and risking fucking themselves over. We've seen multiple examples of teams trying to pin teams back in end game scenarios only to screw up and give them the ball at the 40."

Yes definitely.

I think we are going to see more teams that are behind going down on the one and killing time. That's basically giving them four shots at less than a 2 point conversion (barring a sack or penalty fuck up). Seems that gives you better odds than kicking off with two minutes left.

Note that Higgins was smart enough to do this when Cin was down two but that's easier because you only need a FG. If he were coached by Tomlin he would have just scored, done some idiotic George Pickens celebration and jumped on Flacco's back.

[langer]

but eventually wasted another minute or so

O'Connell was supposed to be the next Bill Walsh, but instead he's the next Joe Walsh circa 1979.

"Hey man, how much time we got left?"

[Deebo]

I think the FG and TD scenario to tie scenario depends on how much time is left and the situation. If I'm very close and have been struggling all day, I'd rather go for the TD first if it's a makable first down while time is on my side. A two minute drill needing a FG is a lot less stressful than a TD.

You kick the FG, you still need to make a stop, anyway. So I don't get your logic there.

That's the critical component: time was a greater factor than what you needed (2 scores). They needed to conserve time while adding points. Essentially however they were going to score, they needed to do it fast. They burned a minute when they could ill afford to

Kick the FG on 4th down and try to play defense so you get decent field position on their punt back to you.

[Stlcrtn1974]

Watching today’s games -

sweat fancy Moses

It isn’t just the Steelers

no one can play defense AMD no one tackles


just flipping terrible tackling

That's what they wanted, and now we're are stuck watching a game I really don't recognize anymore. These qbs run around with no fear, no one tries to level them like they use to.

[jeemie]

I think the FG and TD scenario to tie scenario depends on how much time is left and the situation. If I'm very close and have been struggling all day, I'd rather go for the TD first if it's a makable first down while time is on my side. A two minute drill needing a FG is a lot less stressful than a TD.

You kick the FG, you still need to make a stop, anyway. So I don't get your logic there.

You kick the FG with an extra minute on the clock and you still have all your timeouts plus the two minute warning.

So while you still have to make a stop, you can afford to give up one first down...you have more room for error.

You have zero room for error the way it played out...and if you had failed to convert the fourth down, you ruined your chances of winning as well.

[jeemie]

I don't think coaches in general have adapted to how the new kickoff rules affect end game time management.

Getting from the 30 to the 40 on the other side is pretty manageable in 2 minutes or less and these kickers now make 57 yard FGs like its nothing.

Yeah, I knew they were kinda fucked when Muth crossed the goal line.

Wouldn't have felt that way at all before these new kickoff rules.

I'd like to see the expected value math on this with recent updates.

If the Steelers had only needed a FG instead of a TD, I wonder if Muth would have been smart enough to slide down say around the 25 yard line to give the Steelers room to burn clock?

I know I said during the game that Muth couldn't afford to slide down because the Steelers needed a TD, and Tomlin would be raked over the coals had they foregone the TD there to try and burn time before scoring the TD...and then they never got the TD.

I'm wondering now if once the Bengals blew the coverage they were smart enough to just let Muth score.

And I'm wondering now whether sliding down might be the play after all, considering the new KO rules and the fact our defense couldn't stop the Bengals all night.

Not sure you go for broke like that when you have to balance scoring with time management, but maybe that was the play Rodgers had so he had to take it.

[955876]

Defense will continue to trend down across the league as the rules make it easier and easier to play offense while making it more and more difficult to field a dominant defense.

Only the idiot Steelers spend ridiculous amounts of cap space on their defense while still putting a mediocre to bad unit on tape.

[.Kodiak]

Defense will continue to trend down across the league as the rules make it easier and easier to play offense while making it more and more difficult to field a dominant defense.

The crazy thing is all this is happening early in the year, when defenses are USUALLY still well ahead of the offenses.

[daikyu]

I think we started really seeing this when the new CBA was signed. The limit on practice time, especially padded practices has had a negative impact on the fundamentals of defense.

[955876]

In modern NFL you need…

- An offensive minded HC.

- A franchise QB.

- An oline to protect that QB.

- Spend vap space securing your oline, a premiere WR and TE.

- Utilize a RB by committee approach.

- You then spend draft capital on the dline, DBs, and ensuring you have pass rushers.

Fill in offensive holes as they appear.

The Steelers build the opposite of this. And the lack of postseason success is the result as our highest paid defense in the league routinely gets their shit pushed in.

[955876]

I think we started really seeing this when the new CBA was signed. The limit on practice time, especially padded practices has had a negative impact on the fundamentals of defense.

Plus, you are not allowed to hit hard anymore. Very hard to be a dominant defense without being able to inflict pain & instill fear in your opponent.

Without that fear offenses will do what they want.

I LMAO when the talking head before the Cincy game was referring to our defense as “bullies”.

I’m knew right then and there our D was going to get embarrassed that night.

[Steeldrama]

I think we started really seeing this when the new CBA was signed. The limit on practice time, especially padded practices has had a negative impact on the fundamentals of defense.

Plus, you are not allowed to hit hard anymore. Very hard to be a dominant defense without being able to inflict pain & instill fear in your opponent.

Without that fear offenses will do what they want.

I LMAO when the talking head before the Cincy game was referring to our defense as “bullies”.

I’m knew right then and there our D was going to get embarrassed that night.

^^^
YES

I was in the house when Gary Jones blasted Don Beebe into next week on the concrete turf of Three Rivers Stadium (RIP).

THAT hit to me is still the epitome of not just Steeler football, but how the game of football is meant to be played.

The majority of these beyond fragile players wouldn't last 5 seconds playing in the long gone era of hard hitting football.

I miss it terribly, but I suppose it's better than no football at all.

Yep

"Embarrassed" SHOULD describe how Mike Tomlin and the members of his "Historic" defense feel about their performance not just Thursday night, but for the bulk of the season...

...but we all know they could give a flying fadoodle fart.

No Pride
No Balls
NO GUTS

YOU SUCK, Tomlin!

[jebrick]

In modern NFL you need…

- An offensive minded HC.

- A franchise QB.

- An oline to protect that QB.

- Spend vap space securing your oline, a premiere WR and TE.

- Utilize a RB by committee approach.

- You then spend draft capital on the dline, DBs, and ensuring you have pass rushers.

Fill in offensive holes as they appear.

The Steelers build the opposite of this. And the lack of postseason success is the result as our highest paid defense in the league routinely gets their shit pushed in.

I think you could still follow Cowher's plan which is to build a great team and then wait/go get your franhcise QB.

[AirRescueFF]

I think we started really seeing this when the new CBA was signed. The limit on practice time, especially padded practices has had a negative impact on the fundamentals of defense.

Plus, you are not allowed to hit hard anymore. Very hard to be a dominant defense without being able to inflict pain & instill fear in your opponent.

Without that fear offenses will do what they want.

I LMAO when the talking head before the Cincy game was referring to our defense as “bullies”.

I’m knew right then and there our D was going to get embarrassed that night.

Which makes this product much less "must see" for me over the years.

[CKSteeler]

In modern NFL you need…

- An offensive minded HC.

- A franchise QB.

- An oline to protect that QB.

- Spend vap space securing your oline, a premiere WR and TE.

- Utilize a RB by committee approach.

- You then spend draft capital on the dline, DBs, and ensuring you have pass rushers.

Fill in offensive holes as they appear.

The Steelers build the opposite of this. And the lack of postseason success is the result as our highest paid defense in the league routinely gets their shit pushed in.

I think you could still follow Cowher's plan which is to build a great team and then wait/go get your franhcise QB.

It's what the Chiefs did. I'm loath to say that there's one blueprint to do it in the NFL. I think the old model the Steelers had could work with the right people scouting and drafting. You still want to grow your own team for the most part.

They don't have the right people in charge and they're really behind the rest of the league schematically and if not from a drafting standpoint, most definitely from a player development standpoint.

[bradshaw2ben]

I think the FG and TD scenario to tie scenario depends on how much time is left and the situation. If I'm very close and have been struggling all day, I'd rather go for the TD first if it's a makable first down while time is on my side. A two minute drill needing a FG is a lot less stressful than a TD.

You kick the FG, you still need to make a stop, anyway. So I don't get your logic there.

That's the critical component: time was a greater factor than what you needed (2 scores). They needed to conserve time while adding points. Essentially however they were going to score, they needed to do it fast. They burned a minute when they could ill afford to

Kick the FG on 4th down and try to play defense so you get decent field position on their punt back to you.

Anyone who uses a 2nd-half timeout to prevent a 5 yard penalty on offense–especially in a situation where they're going for it on 4th and short– should be immediately disqualified from making time-management decisions. It is the #1 thing I see NFL HCs do that makes me insane. If you have 3 TOS, even if you fail on a drive inside 2 min, you can stil get the ball back with time to score. If you have only 2 TOs, you don't. When thy chnged the play clock from 30 to 40, it made this change in how you use TOs crucial. When it's a 2nd half 4th and 1, you're trailing by multiple scores and trying to maximize possession-- if you can't decide whether you're going or not or what play to run... you're better off rushing the play and failing than you are using a TO. In chess terms, turning it over on downs is like losing a pawn; taking a TO in that situation is like losing a bishop.

[bradshaw2ben]

In modern NFL you need…

- An offensive minded HC.

- A franchise QB.

- An oline to protect that QB.

- Spend vap space securing your oline, a premiere WR and TE.

- Utilize a RB by committee approach.

- You then spend draft capital on the dline, DBs, and ensuring you have pass rushers.

Fill in offensive holes as they appear.

The Steelers build the opposite of this. And the lack of postseason success is the result as our highest paid defense in the league routinely gets their shit pushed in.

I think you could still follow Cowher's plan which is to build a great team and then wait/go get your franhcise QB.

Maybe. But the shelf life of superstars (and their impatience with playing for a team without a QB) means that you still have to find a QB right away or your core of "great team" will be aged out by the time your franchise QB is ready to win.

[jeemie]

I think the FG and TD scenario to tie scenario depends on how much time is left and the situation. If I'm very close and have been struggling all day, I'd rather go for the TD first if it's a makable first down while time is on my side. A two minute drill needing a FG is a lot less stressful than a TD.

You kick the FG, you still need to make a stop, anyway. So I don't get your logic there.

That's the critical component: time was a greater factor than what you needed (2 scores). They needed to conserve time while adding points. Essentially however they were going to score, they needed to do it fast. They burned a minute when they could ill afford to

Kick the FG on 4th down and try to play defense so you get decent field position on their punt back to you.

Anyone who uses a 2nd-half timeout to prevent a 5 yard penalty on offense–especially in a situation where they're going for it on 4th and short– should be immediately disqualified from making time-management decisions. It is the #1 thing I see NFL HCs do that makes me insane. If you have 3 TOS, even if you fail on a drive inside 2 min, you can stil get the ball back with time to score. If you have only 2 TOs, you don't. When thy chnged the play clock from 30 to 40, it made this change in how you use TOs crucial. When it's a 2nd half 4th and 1, you're trailing by multiple scores and trying to maximize possession-- if you can't decide whether you're going or not or what play to run... you're better off rushing the play and failing than you are using a TO. In chess terms, turning it over on downs is like losing a pawn; taking a TO in that situation is like losing a bishop.

I don't know who you're talking about here, but of all the things O'Connell did wrong with his end game strategy, calling a timeout on the 4th and 2 wasn't one of them.

Clock was stopped because the previously play went OOB.

[Deebo]

I think the FG and TD scenario to tie scenario depends on how much time is left and the situation. If I'm very close and have been struggling all day, I'd rather go for the TD first if it's a makable first down while time is on my side. A two minute drill needing a FG is a lot less stressful than a TD.

You kick the FG, you still need to make a stop, anyway. So I don't get your logic there.

That's the critical component: time was a greater factor than what you needed (2 scores). They needed to conserve time while adding points. Essentially however they were going to score, they needed to do it fast. They burned a minute when they could ill afford to

Kick the FG on 4th down and try to play defense so you get decent field position on their punt back to you.

Anyone who uses a 2nd-half timeout to prevent a 5 yard penalty on offense–especially in a situation where they're going for it on 4th and short– should be immediately disqualified from making time-management decisions. It is the #1 thing I see NFL HCs do that makes me insane. If you have 3 TOS, even if you fail on a drive inside 2 min, you can stil get the ball back with time to score. If you have only 2 TOs, you don't. When thy chnged the play clock from 30 to 40, it made this change in how you use TOs crucial. When it's a 2nd half 4th and 1, you're trailing by multiple scores and trying to maximize possession-- if you can't decide whether you're going or not or what play to run... you're better off rushing the play and failing than you are using a TO. In chess terms, turning it over on downs is like losing a pawn; taking a TO in that situation is like losing a bishop.

The best analogy I can think of is in basketball. You're down by 5 points with less than 1 minute and the nature of the sport requires you to give up possession once you score.

In this analogy, you need a 3 pointer and a 2. Doesn't matter which order you score them in because two things are true:

1. You need to do it quickly AND
2. You need to get a stop on defense, regardless

So again, it doesn't matter if you do the FG first or the TD first. The critical part is that whatever you do, make sure it happens quickly (and before the 2 min warning as it's an extra timeout).

[lifelongsteel]

With the new kickoff rules and the fact that most kickers now have 55+ yard range you need to manage end game differently.

"They scored too soon" seems to happen in almost every close game. Coaches really need to think long and hard about how to manage these situations.

Narrator: Tomlin will not be thinking about this long and hard

[anpsteel]

In modern NFL you need…

- An offensive minded HC.

- A franchise QB.

- An oline to protect that QB.

- Spend vap space securing your oline, a premiere WR and TE.

- Utilize a RB by committee approach.

- You then spend draft capital on the dline, DBs, and ensuring you have pass rushers.

Fill in offensive holes as they appear.

The Steelers build the opposite of this. And the lack of postseason success is the result as our highest paid defense in the league routinely gets their shit pushed in.

I think you could still follow Cowher's plan which is to build a great team and then wait/go get your franhcise QB.

Maybe. But the shelf life of superstars (and their impatience with playing for a team without a QB) means that you still have to find a QB right away or your core of "great team" will be aged out by the time your franchise QB is ready to win.

That and C2 for top level players, at pretty much every position, is not sustainable

[Steelafan77]

Don’t know if he speaks for the entire team or more to his own perception…..

This is a very concerning explanation and unacceptable in my book.

Is this reflective of a poor disciplined team due to coaching alone?

Patrick Queen says Steelers defense were complacent against the Bengals: “I don’t think we were physical enough. I don’t think we was expecting them to run. ‘Cause the whole ranking and all this and that, like hey they’ll run the ball this amount of times, whatever. So I think we got pretty complacent with thinking they wasn’t gonna run a lot… Definitely can’t have that, definitely gotta get better at that.”