Just A Few Post Game Thoughts

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steelclan
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Re: Just A Few Post Game Thoughts

Post by steelclan » Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:08 pm

bradshaw2ben wrote:Patriots do two things really well on defense:
1. stop the run
2. tough in red zone

I don't want to abandon the run this week, because I think they can run it some, regardless-- but Pats' pass defense can be had.


Actually their run D is helped greatly by Pats getting ahead and teams abandoning the run before they have a good shot at getting it going. That and they have not faced an oline or RB close to Bell. Their dline is solid but this isn't the Vince Wilfork led bunch anymore. I agree Steelers can attack their pass D, however, if Bell gets going PS need to keep giving him the rock until Pats can stop it.



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Post by bradshaw2ben » Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:12 pm

dropemjaybird wrote:
SP wrote:
Miter Saw wrote:52 yarder was an underthrow as well..Brown had to slow down which let Houston catch up to him.

But I'll add i think that throw was into any prevailing wind. judging by kick off distances, it seems the wind was going from right to left.


All out blitz with a defender diving at his ankle. He had to recognize it and get the ball out immediately. I can forgive a slight underthrow under those circumstances. That said, a little more air and it's a TD.


Yeah, I thought it was pretty obvious he really couldn't step into that throw after already sheading one ankle tackle and stepping into a bit of a crowded front of the pocket.

I mean the Chiefs gave up 100 yards running in the first half, and I still don't think they brought 8 into the box in the second half - that shows you what they feared from the game manager having a bad game. I give them credit, they rolled the dice and figured their strength was the red zone, a true "bend but don't break", and it worked for them.

I think that's an excellent strategy against this offense-- it's basically rope-a-dope... the Steelers expend a lot of energy pounding it between the redzones, then have to crank it up vs a stacked D in a compressed area in the red zone.

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Post by Legacy User » Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:23 pm

dropemjaybird wrote:
SP wrote:
Miter Saw wrote:52 yarder was an underthrow as well..Brown had to slow down which let Houston catch up to him.

But I'll add i think that throw was into any prevailing wind. judging by kick off distances, it seems the wind was going from right to left.


All out blitz with a defender diving at his ankle. He had to recognize it and get the ball out immediately. I can forgive a slight underthrow under those circumstances. That said, a little more air and it's a TD.


Yeah, I thought it was pretty obvious he really couldn't step into that throw after already sheading one ankle tackle and stepping into a bit of a crowded front of the pocket.


Watch it again. 2 defenders tripped up near his feet. But Ben stepped up and into throw. I'm not harpin on Ben much for that throw...but he didn't have defenders in his face...on release he had guys on the ground to the side and behind.

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Post by Pabst » Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:24 pm

steelclan wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:Patriots do two things really well on defense:
1. stop the run
2. tough in red zone

I don't want to abandon the run this week, because I think they can run it some, regardless-- but Pats' pass defense can be had.


Actually their run D is helped greatly by Pats getting ahead and teams abandoning the run before they have a good shot at getting it going. That and they have not faced an oline or RB close to Bell. Their dline is solid but this isn't the Vince Wilfork led bunch anymore. I agree Steelers can attack their pass D, however, if Bell gets going PS need to keep giving him the rock until Pats can stop it.


NE has also played alot of pure garbage offenses/QBs this year: NYJ twice, San Fran, Rams, Browns, Broncos, Texans. They also had the luxury of playing the Steelers without Ben and the Dolphins without Tannehill.

The best offense NE has seen this year was Arizona back in week 1.

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Post by lifelongsteel » Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:27 pm

Rarely does a game go exactly the way you would expect.

Steelers more effective - more yards
Chiefs more efficient - points per yard

A couple thoughts
- Steelers don't usually win playoff games without a strong effort from Ben. Everything was off with Ben. The ball just wasn't coming out of his hands sharply. He had high balls, fluttering balls, bad decisions. And he came through in the clutch
- You can really see the Tomlin stamp on this defense in their ability to defend Kelsey and Reek Hill. Speed + speed + competitiveness is what you get from the DB's and LB's on this team. Davis is special
- I'm not a play call complainer, but 2nd and 2 on the 4, on the first drive, with Bell getting 6-8 yards a drive, was time to run the ball. You don't think Bell can get 2 yards in 3 attempts there? Likely he scores on one of those runs, if not you have a first down and can run it 3 more times. Too cute by half
- Similarly 1st and goal on the 5 wasn't the time to throw it into traffic, against a team that lives off redzone turnovers

I have two hopes going forward against NE
- Ben will be Ben
- Our new D personnel better prepared for the NE dink and dunk. (Please, please, please let Davis or Mitchell get a clean shot at Edelman)

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Post by Legacy User » Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:28 pm

Pabst wrote:
steelclan wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:Patriots do two things really well on defense:
1. stop the run
2. tough in red zone

I don't want to abandon the run this week, because I think they can run it some, regardless-- but Pats' pass defense can be had.


Actually their run D is helped greatly by Pats getting ahead and teams abandoning the run before they have a good shot at getting it going. That and they have not faced an oline or RB close to Bell. Their dline is solid but this isn't the Vince Wilfork led bunch anymore. I agree Steelers can attack their pass D, however, if Bell gets going PS need to keep giving him the rock until Pats can stop it.


NE has also played alot of pure garbage offenses/QBs this year: NYJ twice, San Fran, Rams, Browns, Broncos, Texans. They also had the luxury of playing the Steelers without Ben and the Dolphins without Tannehill.

The best offense NE has seen this year was Arizona back in week 1.


Very true, but BB will figure out a way to stop the run. We can't abandon the run, and we can be hopeful that running will work against NE, but we will need to pass successfully, and I'm confident we can. Not afraid of the Pats secondary

We need to score TDs to win

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Post by Stosh-67 » Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:32 pm

And I said it a few times last night in the game thread; KCs offense and scheme was called so much better than ours. Misdirection, dudes running all over the place behind the LOS, shovel pass to Kelc


There is ZERO deception to the Steelers offense.
Been saying it for years.
Its all about execution.
And since defenses are paid to execute..............its deception that helps win plays here and there.
Ben has to be perfect on everyone of his throws. He has very little room for error.
How can he not be apprehensive.
He almost never has a player schemed wide the Eff open.

a few solutions:

More PA. - with the way the OL is blocking and the way Lev is running, PA passes should help create separation for our receivers.
PA is also more effective when the QB is under center. Not every snap needs to be from the pistol. Ben is still plenty mobile.

More motion.
We do not move guys around very much. We do not shift guys into different spots. Our skill guys are almost always set upon snap. And they are usually set for 5-8 second before snap.
Which makes it a hell of a lot easier for defenders to scan the sets and be ready for it.........if not knowing and registering what players are where.
I love the plays with the speedy guys in full sprint behind the line of scrimmage. That alone should drag some defenders with him, should take a half step out of the DE/OLB from crashing inside on run plays.
Tuff enough to stick with AB, Rogers and Ayers .........give them a running start and they are starting off with separation rather than having to use a second or two of each play to try and create it.

Moving the pocket. - Roll outs.
Now Ben has been protected better than he has ever been in his career. Sacked at a career low rate.
But they need to mix in a few roll-out pass plays that usually help guys get open.
Mis-direction?
Miss Direction is girl in a beauty pageant or driving down a one way street.
Every team uses some form of miss direction plays, bootleg roll outs, moving the pocket.
We do not.
Ben is still plenty mobile. See last play of game. He moved well last week as well.

Strategy / Play Calling / Bens brain.
This team is football dumb too often.
2nd and 2 at the 5 with the best RB in the world, running behind an OL that is healthy, clicking and hungry. Throw in a hammer at FB.
Hell, what defense would want to see James Harrison or Timmons lined up next to Nix with Bell behind them. LOL
And the correct way to get the ball in the endzone is to hand the ball to Bell...............He will get in the endzone in 3 tries.
Tomlin / Haley and Ben all need to understand this.

Again, 1st and goal at the 4...........once again. See above. Steelers brains get in the way.
Its like they forgot what ran them all the way down the field and what should run them into the endzone.

Spreading out a team in 5 wide with no RB in the backfield, inside the 5 is not smart football, for the PS.
Considering, you have the best RB in the world and Ben is not a run threat.
Spreading 7-8 defenders across the endzone creates less room form separation and small windows.
Throw in the 3-4 down lineman and then endzone is loaded and dispersed..especially if a lineman also drops into the endzone.

Once again, so vanilla on passing downs inside the 5.
No bunch sets, no picks, rubs, crossers no full sprint motion. There is nothing to deceive and cross up the defense.

I am hoping they were saving great play designs inside the 10, 5 yard line for the Patriots.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by bradshaw2ben » Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:32 pm

steelclan wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:Patriots do two things really well on defense:
1. stop the run
2. tough in red zone

I don't want to abandon the run this week, because I think they can run it some, regardless-- but Pats' pass defense can be had.


Actually their run D is helped greatly by Pats getting ahead and teams abandoning the run before they have a good shot at getting it going. That and they have not faced an oline or RB close to Bell. Their dline is solid but this isn't the Vince Wilfork led bunch anymore. I agree Steelers can attack their pass D, however, if Bell gets going PS need to keep giving him the rock until Pats can stop it.

The Pats are 4th against the run, with play situation and quality of opponent factored in.

They held Bell to 83 yds and <4 ypc. They held Ajayi to 73 yards and under 3.5 ypc... in two games.

They are legit vs the run.

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Post by steelclan » Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:39 pm

bradshaw2ben wrote:
steelclan wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:Patriots do two things really well on defense:
1. stop the run
2. tough in red zone

I don't want to abandon the run this week, because I think they can run it some, regardless-- but Pats' pass defense can be had.


Actually their run D is helped greatly by Pats getting ahead and teams abandoning the run before they have a good shot at getting it going. That and they have not faced an oline or RB close to Bell. Their dline is solid but this isn't the Vince Wilfork led bunch anymore. I agree Steelers can attack their pass D, however, if Bell gets going PS need to keep giving him the rock until Pats can stop it.

The Pats are 4th against the run, with play situation and quality of opponent factored in.

They held Bell to 83 yds and <4 ypc. They held Ajayi to 73 yards and under 3.5 ypc... in two games.


They are legit vs the run.



Come on now B2B that first game Pats could safely sell out v the run. Landry Jones isn't scaring anyone.

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Post by Baltostiller » Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:41 pm

bradshaw2ben wrote:
steelclan wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:Patriots do two things really well on defense:
1. stop the run
2. tough in red zone

I don't want to abandon the run this week, because I think they can run it some, regardless-- but Pats' pass defense can be had.


Actually their run D is helped greatly by Pats getting ahead and teams abandoning the run before they have a good shot at getting it going. That and they have not faced an oline or RB close to Bell. Their dline is solid but this isn't the Vince Wilfork led bunch anymore. I agree Steelers can attack their pass D, however, if Bell gets going PS need to keep giving him the rock until Pats can stop it.

The Pats are 4th against the run, with play situation and quality of opponent factored in.

They held Bell to 83 yds and <4 ypc. They held Ajayi to 73 yards and under 3.5 ypc... in two games.

They are legit vs the run.


If I recall correctly, they stacked the box and dared Landry to beat them. He didn't.

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Post by Pabst » Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:44 pm

bradshaw2ben wrote:They held Bell to 83 yds and <4 ypc. They held Ajayi to 73 yards and under 3.5 ypc... in two games.

- Landry Jones at QB
- Ajayi was not the starting RB in their first game, and Tannehill nearly put up 400 yards in that game.

The Bills (twice), Arizona, and San Francisco all ran effectively against the Pats. I'm not doubting that their run d is good (definitely better than the Dolphins & Chiefs), but I do think we can move the ball on the ground against them.

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Post by BethlehemSteel » Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:49 pm

bradshaw2ben wrote:Patriots do two things really well on defense:
1. stop the run
2. tough in red zone

I don't want to abandon the run this week, because I think they can run it some, regardless-- but Pats' pass defense can be had.


Here are the Pats all season rushing stats against by team. Note the opponent's penchant for running the ball based on game situation vs having the skill positions

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Post by Legacy User » Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:11 pm

Miter Saw wrote:Watch it again. 2 defenders tripped up near his feet. But Ben stepped up and into throw. I'm not harpin on Ben much for that throw...but he didn't have defenders in his face...on release he had guys on the ground to the side and behind.


Sure he got to step into the throw, but not the kind of step you need to heave it 50+ yards in the air. It was more of a short step. Some guys in the league can't make that throw even with a full step into a clean pocket.

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Post by Legacy User » Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:12 pm

We very rarely go play action from the shotgun.This is a big mistake!Bell does most of his damage running from the shot gun. Mixing in some play action on first and second down could be killer.The way we have been running the ball the Linebackers and even safeties have to respect the play action.

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Post by R_S » Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:15 pm

I've seen Ben so much worse this year. The offense moved the ball at will. The screwed the pooch in the redzone. I'll take that performance over playing like shit for 3 quarters, throwing bad interceptions, then needing a miracle drive to win it (Ravens game)

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Post by Legacy User » Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:26 pm

I think you're being a little rough on old #7, FC. Yes, was NOT his best game. Yes, the throw to Rogers, for instance, was over the wrong shoulder. Yes, the hot read with AB was ill advised.

But, not easy to play in that weather. It was wet, and Ben often has issues gripping the ball. KC has a legit D, especially their secondary. The game plan limited what Ben could do. He made a couple of throws when he really needed to.

Again, I wasn't thrilled with his performance. Obviously he's going to have to step it up quite a bit to beat the Evil Empire. But I think he can.

And I think he will.

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Post by bradshaw2ben » Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:28 pm

Pabst wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:They held Bell to 83 yds and <4 ypc. They held Ajayi to 73 yards and under 3.5 ypc... in two games.

- Landry Jones at QB
- Ajayi was not the starting RB in their first game, and Tannehill nearly put up 400 yards in that game.

The Bills (twice), Arizona, and San Francisco all ran effectively against the Pats. I'm not doubting that their run d is good (definitely better than the Dolphins & Chiefs), but I do think we can move the ball on the ground against them.

I don't disagree that the Steelers will get some of theirs in the run game-- but the Pats are twice as far above average in run stopping than the Steelers-- when quality of opponent, game situation, and play situation are factored in.

Now, do I think they are really that much better than the Steelers? Not since halfway through the season.

I said it in one of the game threads this weekend: I think the Steelers have the best remaining defense in the tournament. we'll see if it matters in two games vs ATL's #1 offense, NE's #2 offense (#1 in second half of the season), or GB's #4 offense. If the Steelers somehow win the Super Bowl, they're going to have to do it vs superior QB play.

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Post by Steelafan77 » Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:28 pm

bradshaw2ben wrote:Maybe at Arrowhead, you have to call a great game?

I see what you did there. :D

Some of the challenge was the Chiefs defense was playing very well. Especially the secondary. Making it difficult for separation. Ben needed his receivers playing their A game. The lone sack on Ben was a coverage sack. Yes, he could have thrown the ball away but that's Ben. I do agree that Ben struggled. Play calling is the usual suspect and I also attribute that to a solid Chief defense and a loud stadium.

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Post by jebrick » Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:30 pm

With Bell's style I am waiting on a Flea-flicker. A perfect time to bring it out. Works better if Green or James are the target.
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Post by bradshaw2ben » Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:30 pm

I just watched the highlights on NFL.com. If that's all you saw of this game, you'd think Ben was pretty good. There were two of the more awesome pump fakes you'll ever see and both resulted in big gains to James that set up scores. Wasn't perfect, but made plays. (that should be Ben's epitiaph)

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Post by jeemie » Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:40 pm

Ben gets paid $100 M.

We can disagree on the specific level of performance, but I can't believe there's anyone that believes he's lived up to his $100 M paycheck these playoffs.

Yes, he's had his moments. Yes, he made the key play that stuck it to the Chiefs.

But we need him to be the $100 M player we know he can be.

No more excuses about the weather, or it's on the road so he can't check out of Haley's plays, or his receivers are young.

He's GOT to play better.

And If it seems like I'm overly harsh with him, it's because I know he can.

It really is just that simple.

No more excuses.

For #7 to win #7, #7 has to be the #7 we know he can be.

Period. End of story.
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Post by Legacy User » Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:45 pm

bradshaw2ben wrote:
SP wrote:
FC wrote:-The Steelers offense minus one player was fantastic as a unit. Ben Roethlisberger was beyond terrible. Ben should walk up to every player on the roster and apologize. His play cannot be defended. He was awful.

My point the Steelers won the past 2 games despite Ben....If they have any chance against the Pats Ben be better find his elite level


You probably need to elaborate on this post. Ben missed on 9 passes last night. 3 or 4 were bad plays on his part. You said his play cant be defended. I can defend it.

His bad plays:
-Not seeing Poe jump up and knock a pass down to start the game
-underthrew a wide open AB once, missed him once on a quick hitter. That may have been on AB though. Miscommuncation.
-The audible to quick pass in the redzone that was tipped and picked. Should have just run it there. If they score it's a great call. If it isnt tipped, it probably is a TD.

Ben also threw perfect passes to Brown in the endzone for a TD, but he was stripped by Peters. Another perfect pass to Rogers near the goal line who dropped the pass because he's a midget. Those guys catch those two balls and the Steelers win in a blowout and Ben has a 100+ rating. They didn't so Ben was awful and should apologize to teammates I guess.

The Steelers fatal flaw is they have no threatening secondary receivers. James isn't outrunning anyone. Rogers & Ayers are midgets. Coates and DHB cant get on the field. Hamilton is a blocking dummy. Not having Ladarius, Martavis, Wheaton, or a healthy Coates is an issue. The Chiefs in the first game played tight man coverage and Ben killed them deep. This time they chose to die slowly by defending the downfield passes and were content to let Bell 6-yards-at-a-time them to death. Ths strategy kept the Steelers out of the endzone.

Ben needs to be better. This was a B- performance. He doesn't owe anyone any apology. He needs an A+ to win in NE

You are my hero perch.

I think Ben was okay-- made the plays to win. It sure feels like the offense is discombobulated because the run game and the pass game have no correlation to one another. One does not feed the other. Also, you go long stretches of the game where Ben has 2 or three throws and half are in unfavorable down and distance-- no flow. Do we honestly expect Ben and the receivers to just flip a switch whenever we need them? Especially with little to no misdirection or playfakes?

I'll give you a reason for home - road offensive splits-- as Zabo pointed outt, at home Ben adjusts every call. In arrowhead, be bad a difficult time of it. Maybe at Arrowhead, you have to call a great game?




FC you know I got mad respect for you but I'm calling BS on your description of play not only in this game but in the Miami game. As stated perfectly by Perch 2 throws that should have been completed, for TDs and we are singing a way different tune. The Steelers very clearly feared the KC pass rush and probably the weather forecast going into that game and so all play calls were pretty much made to get the ball out immediately, I don't think he was great but he was so so far away from what you describe. In the Miami game except for the 1 int in the 1st half Ben was flawless, really really good.

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Post by smithessmokin » Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:01 pm

RooneyTunes wrote:Ben had a Hell of a throw to AB in the end zone for a td that AB usually hauls in.

Eli Rogers had play in the red zone that he had to catch as well, he makes that catch he probably falls into the end zone.

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Post by COR-TEN » Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:03 pm

I also re-watched some highlights. I think he was not good. He was OK, and completed passes he had to. But his throws were under and over thrown. His accuracy has suffered to some extent. He's not leading players, and many of which had to either wait for the ball, pick it up off the turf, turn back for the ball, or reach. He's better that that, and this team will need him to be better if they want to walk out of FB with a win.
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Post by 955876 » Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:28 pm

Come on now B2B that first game Pats could safely sell out v the run. Landry Jones isn't scaring anyone


And neither will Ben if he continues to play like a middle of the road journeyman. Especially when the QB on the other side of the field is named Brady, Rodgers, or Ryan.

Ben has never had the protection he has now and IMO has regressed some.

His recent level of play simply won't be good enough.

I think he knows this.
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Post by Stosh-67 » Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:38 pm

I said it in one of the game threads this weekend: I think the Steelers have the best remaining defense in the tournament. we'll see if it matters in two games vs ATL's #1 offense, NE's #2 offense (#1 in second half of the season), or GB's #4 offense. If the Steelers somehow win the Super Bowl, they're going to have to do it vs superior QB play.


Yes sir.
This defense has grown by leaps and bounds over the last 8-9 weeks.
But they will have to face one of the three best QB's of the 2017 season and offenses that can pass it up and down the field.

So yes, Ben will need to play alot better than he has in these two playoff games and down the strech of the regular season.
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Post by jeemie » Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:39 pm

955876 wrote:
Come on now B2B that first game Pats could safely sell out v the run. Landry Jones isn't scaring anyone


And neither will Ben if he continues to play like a middle of the road journeyman. Especially when the QB on the other side of the field is named Brady, Rodgers, or Ryan.

Ben has never had the protection he has now and IMO has regressed some.

His recent level of play simply won't be good enough.

I think he knows this.


This is where we need Ben...and the team...to be next week.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvsDE7HFRvw[/youtube]

No more excuses.

I think we have better talent than New England. All things being equal, we should beat them.

But we won't if we don't put it all together.
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Post by Legacy User » Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:14 pm

Ben been throwing high for a few weeks now. Can't put my finger on it exact but around the time of the injury. Before that how quickly some forget he was in the league MVP convo and not just on this board.

Since around that injury Ben has been above to below average by his standards. I don't think he was as bad call chiefs as some games in December. The D OL and AB and bell have been carrying this team.

But no question we need good games out of him.

Would also be great if D improves even and this becomes a season we win it all on the backs of them and nobody saw that coming.

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Post by Legacy User » Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:44 pm

If shaky DeShaun Watson can clean up his mistakes for the final two games and revert to peak form, then shaky Ben (who is a pro) can too.

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Post by Legacy User » Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:57 pm

Jeemie wrote:Ben gets paid $100 M.

We can disagree on the specific level of performance, but I can't believe there's anyone that believes he's lived up to his $100 M paycheck these playoffs.

Yes, he's had his moments. Yes, he made the key play that stuck it to the Chiefs.

But we need him to be the $100 M player we know he can be.

No more excuses about the weather, or it's on the road so he can't check out of Haley's plays, or his receivers are young.

He's GOT to play better.

And If it seems like I'm overly harsh with him, it's because I know he can.

It really is just that simple.

No more excuses.

For #7 to win #7, #7 has to be the #7 we know he can be.

Period. End of story.


this x 100

Anything less than elite play by Ben means watching the Pats in the SB.

Bell, not Ben, has put this team on his back so far for the playoffs.

Time for Ben to step up.

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