Coaching to blame for Ben's injury

[jeemie]

Pouncey salary next year when he MAY play again is $10.5MM. Thats 7.3% of our cap (based on $143MM). Think about that for a minute. You think he add's $9MM of value over and above what a Wallace or a Velasco can provide???

http://overthecap.com/salary-cap/pittsburgh-steelers

I think Pouncey was massively overpaid.

I think we can do better than Cody Wallace.

[Legacy User]

Pouncey salary next year when he MAY play again is $10.5MM. Thats 7.3% of our cap (based on $143MM). Think about that for a minute. You think he add's $9MM of value over and above what a Wallace or a Velasco can provide???

http://overthecap.com/salary-cap/pittsburgh-steelers

I think Pouncey was massively overpaid.

I think we can do better than Cody Wallace.

I disagree that they overpaid for Pouncey. They paid market value for who he is.

I think the more accurate criticism would be to say that the FO overvalues the player at the position. I.e., it is an imprudent allocation of cap resources.

I don't know whether to agree with that more accurate critique, either.

[jeemie]

I disagree that they overpaid for Pouncey. They paid market value for who he is.

I think the more accurate criticism would be to say that the FO overvalues the player at the position. I.e., it is an imprudent allocation of cap resources.

I don't know whether to agree with that more accurate critique, either.

Thanks- that's what i was trying to say.

I wouldn't pay so much for a center...how's that?

I think we could be loads better at cap management. My strategy would be to identify my commodity and premium positions, and structure draft/FA so I had waves of players coming through to replace players at the commodity positions as soon as their inexpensive C$1s expired. The premium positions- I'd get the best player available and re-up them when the time came.

Maybe that's the Steelers' strategy and I just differ from the FO as to which positions are viewed as commodity and which as premium, but it's not apparent to me. It seems to me they value the player not the position, and that can get you into trouble cap-wise...because sometimes you have to be brutal and cut a talented player because he doesn't fit your allocation model (unless, of course, there's a reason to make an exception).

[stinger8]

I disagree that they overpaid for Pouncey. They paid market value for who he is.

I think the more accurate criticism would be to say that the FO overvalues the player at the position. I.e., it is an imprudent allocation of cap resources.

I don't know whether to agree with that more accurate critique, either.

Thanks- that's what i was trying to say.

I wouldn't pay so much for a center...how's that?

I think we could be loads better at cap management. My strategy would be to identify my commodity and premium positions, and structure draft/FA so I had waves of players coming through to replace players at the commodity positions as soon as their inexpensive C$1s expired. The premium positions- I'd get the best player available and re-up them when the time came.

Maybe that's the Steelers' strategy and I just differ from the FO as to which positions are viewed as commodity and which as premium, but it's not apparent to me. It seems to me they value the player not the position, and that can get you into trouble cap-wise...because sometimes you have to be brutal and cut a talented player because he doesn't fit your allocation model (unless, of course, there's a reason to make an exception).

I think an element to the salary cap strategy is that the current providers of talent (team Colbert) are overly sensitive about letting a draft choice go on C2 and seeing them flourish somewhere else (see Sanders), so they give most draft choices C2's even if they could get better VALUE letting them go and signing a cheap free agent or draft choice.

Great examples of this are Mike Wallace, think about how badly that could have ended (we could have lost Brown) if Miami was not so stoopid, and now Pouncey. I don't think it is debatable, seeing how our offense has continued to produce without the winged god of the second level and a $1MM center (does not matter who Wallace, Velasco Rd4 draft choice) in his place. The time with Velasco and this year proves you just need competency from that spot, not elite. Take the $9MM savings and sign Bell, Bryant, a real pass rusher take your pick. If Colbert picks you and you have some success you are getting C2 so he saves face (and I suspect does not have to take a risk by having to find a replacement and show his talent evaluation skills, which are sketchy at best).

[randomsteelerfan]

Thanks- that's what i was trying to say.

I wouldn't pay so much for a center...how's that?

I think we could be loads better at cap management. My strategy would be to identify my commodity and premium positions, and structure draft/FA so I had waves of players coming through to replace players at the commodity positions as soon as their inexpensive C$1s expired. The premium positions- I'd get the best player available and re-up them when the time came.

Maybe that's the Steelers' strategy and I just differ from the FO as to which positions are viewed as commodity and which as premium, but it's not apparent to me. It seems to me they value the player not the position, and that can get you into trouble cap-wise...because sometimes you have to be brutal and cut a talented player because he doesn't fit your allocation model (unless, of course, there's a reason to make an exception).

I think an element to the salary cap strategy is that the current providers of talent (team Colbert) are overly sensitive about letting a draft choice go on C2 and seeing them flourish somewhere else (see Sanders), so they give most draft choices C2's even if they could get better VALUE letting them go and signing a cheap free agent or draft choice.

Great examples of this are Mike Wallace, think about how badly that could have ended (we could have lost Brown) if Miami was not so stoopid, and now Pouncey. I don't think it is debatable, seeing how our offense has continued to produce without the winged god of the second level and a $1MM center (does not matter who Wallace, Velasco Rd4 draft choice) in his place. The time with Velasco and this year proves you just need competency from that spot, not elite. Take the $9MM savings and sign Bell, Bryant, a real pass rusher take your pick. If Colbert picks you and you have some success you are getting C2 so he saves face (and I suspect does not have to take a risk by having to find a replacement and show his talent evaluation skills, which are sketchy at best).

This was an unintended benefit prior to Heinz Field opening. The Steelers almost never went to a C3 and rarely went to C2's because they couldn't. They were always turning over the roster due to forced financial constraints. They were never in Cap hell because they had to let talent walk.

Once Heinz and it's PSL's opened up, the financial restraints were lifted and extending players into C2 and C3 became much more available to the Steelers. Which has led to them keeping expensive players too long and not turning over roster as much.

[Legacy User]

They also started winning Super Bowls again after Heinz opened. It's MUCH easier to let a vet walk when you just got upset in the playoffs again than when the guy just helped you pick up a Lombardi. The forward looking decision process should not change all that much, but in reality it makes true evaluation more difficult.

[bradshaw2ben]

I disagree that they overpaid for Pouncey. They paid market value for who he is.

I think the more accurate criticism would be to say that the FO overvalues the player at the position. I.e., it is an imprudent allocation of cap resources.

I don't know whether to agree with that more accurate critique, either.

Thanks- that's what i was trying to say.

I wouldn't pay so much for a center...how's that?

I think we could be loads better at cap management. My strategy would be to identify my commodity and premium positions, and structure draft/FA so I had waves of players coming through to replace players at the commodity positions as soon as their inexpensive C$1s expired. The premium positions- I'd get the best player available and re-up them when the time came.

Maybe that's the Steelers' strategy and I just differ from the FO as to which positions are viewed as commodity and which as premium, but it's not apparent to me. It seems to me they value the player not the position, and that can get you into trouble cap-wise...because sometimes you have to be brutal and cut a talented player because he doesn't fit your allocation model (unless, of course, there's a reason to make an exception).

I think an element to the salary cap strategy is that the current providers of talent (team Colbert) are overly sensitive about letting a draft choice go on C2 and seeing them flourish somewhere else (see Sanders), so they give most draft choices C2's even if they could get better VALUE letting them go and signing a cheap free agent or draft choice.

Great examples of this are Mike Wallace, think about how badly that could have ended (we could have lost Brown) if Miami was not so stoopid, and now Pouncey. I don't think it is debatable, seeing how our offense has continued to produce without the winged god of the second level and a $1MM center (does not matter who Wallace, Velasco Rd4 draft choice) in his place. The time with Velasco and this year proves you just need competency from that spot, not elite. Take the $9MM savings and sign Bell, Bryant, a real pass rusher take your pick. If Colbert picks you and you have some success you are getting C2 so he saves face (and I suspect does not have to take a risk by having to find a replacement and show his talent evaluation skills, which are sketchy at best).

except that we lost probably the most important game of the year and a shot at a bye because our 1M$$ center screwed the pooch. How's that for savings?

[lifelongsteel]

Standard practice for good teams is to keep as many of the guys they drafted through at least C2.

Here's the formula a) draft well b) make sure your highest paid players are your best players c) make sure your best players work the hardest and d) keep as many of the kids you drafted for as long as you can

This idea that you can win by dumping your own guys for FA upgrades has been proven false time and time again.

[jeemie]

Standard practice for good teams is to keep as many of the guys they drafted through at least C2.

Here's the formula a) draft well b) make sure your highest paid players are your best players c) make sure your best players work the hardest and d) keep as many of the kids you drafted for as long as you can

This idea that you can win by dumping your own guys for FA upgrades has been proven false time and time again.

You might want to ask Bill Belichick about that. He disagrees.

[lifelongsteel]

Standard practice for good teams is to keep as many of the guys they drafted through at least C2.

Here's the formula a) draft well b) make sure your highest paid players are your best players c) make sure your best players work the hardest and d) keep as many of the kids you drafted for as long as you can

This idea that you can win by dumping your own guys for FA upgrades has been proven false time and time again.

You might want to ask Bill Belichick about that. He disagrees.

Really? Which part?

[Kodiak]

I think the problem, as it relates to Pouncey, is they simply invested too much in the position. You draft a C with an R1 pick, and either you're going to be paying a C too much down the road or you overdrafted the position.

I think receiver and RB are also commodities, but I'd make exception for AB and Bell, both of whom could be generational talents and clearly trending as HOFers.

OL is tricky. Because of the chemistry involved, you're only as strong as your weakest link...and that also creates strong diminishing returns from Pro Bowl level players (except LT).

Get a stud QB, protect him, and dump money into the defense.

[jeemie]

Standard practice for good teams is to keep as many of the guys they drafted through at least C2.

Here's the formula a) draft well b) make sure your highest paid players are your best players c) make sure your best players work the hardest and d) keep as many of the kids you drafted for as long as you can

This idea that you can win by dumping your own guys for FA upgrades has been proven false time and time again.

You might want to ask Bill Belichick about that. He disagrees.

Really? Which part?

The parts where he drafts well and keeps his guys through at least C$2.

Belichick treats the draft like lottery tickets. He doesn't draft well- he drafts often.

And there are only a few guys he makes sure he keeps locked up- the rest are interchangeable parts.

[stinger8]

Thanks- that's what i was trying to say.

I wouldn't pay so much for a center...how's that?

I think we could be loads better at cap management. My strategy would be to identify my commodity and premium positions, and structure draft/FA so I had waves of players coming through to replace players at the commodity positions as soon as their inexpensive C$1s expired. The premium positions- I'd get the best player available and re-up them when the time came.

Maybe that's the Steelers' strategy and I just differ from the FO as to which positions are viewed as commodity and which as premium, but it's not apparent to me. It seems to me they value the player not the position, and that can get you into trouble cap-wise...because sometimes you have to be brutal and cut a talented player because he doesn't fit your allocation model (unless, of course, there's a reason to make an exception).[/quote]

I think an element to the salary cap strategy is that the current providers of talent (team Colbert) are overly sensitive about letting a draft choice go on C2 and seeing them flourish somewhere else (see Sanders), so they give most draft choices C2's even if they could get better VALUE letting them go and signing a cheap free agent or draft choice.

Great examples of this are Mike Wallace, think about how badly that could have ended (we could have lost Brown) if Miami was not so stoopid, and now Pouncey. I don't think it is debatable, seeing how our offense has continued to produce without the winged god of the second level and a $1MM center (does not matter who Wallace, Velasco Rd4 draft choice) in his place. The time with Velasco and this year proves you just need competency from that spot, not elite. Take the $9MM savings and sign Bell, Bryant, a real pass rusher take your pick. If Colbert picks you and you have some success you are getting C2 so he saves face (and I suspect does not have to take a risk by having to find a replacement and show his talent evaluation skills, which are sketchy at best).[/quote]
except that we lost probably the most important game of the year and a shot at a bye because our 1M$$ center screwed the pooch. How's that for savings?[/quote]

Care to elaborate? Example? I think we can pick 1 example when every player on our roster "screwed the pooch". Curious which massive mistake a $1MM player committed that was so egregious.

[bradshaw2ben]

Care to elaborate? Example? I think we can pick 1 example when every player on our roster "screwed the pooch". Curious which massive mistake a $1MM player committed that was so egregious.

He allowed Geno Atkins to run free at our $100M player on the turning point of the game.

My point is not that they should overpay Pouncey, only that there is a long way down to Wallace.

[stinger8]

Care to elaborate? Example? I think we can pick 1 example when every player on our roster "screwed the pooch". Curious which massive mistake a $1MM player committed that was so egregious.

He allowed Geno Atkins to run free at our $100M player on the turning point of the game.

My point is not that they should overpay Pouncey, only that there is a long way down to Wallace.

Is Pouncey 10 times better than Wallace??? He gets paid 10 times more(next year).

[Legacy User]

Care to elaborate? Example? I think we can pick 1 example when every player on our roster "screwed the pooch". Curious which massive mistake a $1MM player committed that was so egregious.

He allowed Geno Atkins to run free at our $100M player on the turning point of the game.

My point is not that they should overpay Pouncey, only that there is a long way down to Wallace.

This is where I'm at. I'm not some Pouncey fan boy. But the dude is an all pro center.

Buh buh buh, Pouncey gets walked back sometimes. Well, every center does. And I doubt they drafted M.P. to be a fat immovable sloth. I bet they drafted him because he is an ultra athletic center that can do what they want to do.

The money problem is that he is in the tub too much, not that he is not worth his dollars just because he plays center. He didn't give up a sack last season! Am I wrong about that?

[Legacy User]

Care to elaborate? Example? I think we can pick 1 example when every player on our roster "screwed the pooch". Curious which massive mistake a $1MM player committed that was so egregious.

He allowed Geno Atkins to run free at our $100M player on the turning point of the game.

My point is not that they should overpay Pouncey, only that there is a long way down to Wallace.

Is Pouncey 10 times better than Wallace??? He gets paid 10 times more(next year).

Yes, but, come one, Wallace is a back up making back up money. I wonder how much Wallace would get on the open market. If he is really starting quality, then how much is his true market value? I have no clue. Can we make the same argument with Gilbert? How much drop off do we really get from Gilbert to Adams on the right side? Enough to justify Gilbert's contract? And when DD gets paid, will the distance from him to his back up really be justified by the money?

How average of an o line do you want?

[stinger8]

Yes, but, come one, Wallace is a back up making back up money. I wonder how much Wallace would get on the open market. If he is really starting quality, then how much is his true market value? I have no clue. Can we make the same argument with Gilbert? How much drop off do we really get from Gilbert to Adams on the right side? Enough to justify Gilbert's contract? And when DD gets paid, will the distance from him to his back up really be justified by the money?

How average of an o line do you want?[/quote]


Lit, very soon the following guys need to get paid.

Ben $20MM
Brown??
Bryant??
Bell??
Decastro??
LT???

Fill in the blanks. I would rather pay Decastro than Pouncey. We may have no choice but to have a average O line

Pouncey 2016 $10.5MM
2017 $11MM
2018 $10.5MM

My point is the drop off from Pouncey to the current center who I admit is a back up, is not that significant. The results we have seen this year prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt. Pouncey, in my opinion is over rated. He is a good player I agree but he is a $5 to $7MM MAX a year player. He has warts you acknowledged 1 he gets walked into the backfield too much for an All pro 'elite" player.

Would Belicheat pay a center $10MM a year?? He traded an all pro guard last year making ONLY $7MM a year, a team captain, went with a rookie with no pedigree, and WON a super bowl. I should add he had no salary cap pressures to deal with.

Look at what the guys in N.E. get paid. Thats called smart salary cap management

http://overthecap.com/salary-cap/new-england-patriots

[jeemie]

Care to elaborate? Example? I think we can pick 1 example when every player on our roster "screwed the pooch". Curious which massive mistake a $1MM player committed that was so egregious.

He allowed Geno Atkins to run free at our $100M player on the turning point of the game.

My point is not that they should overpay Pouncey, only that there is a long way down to Wallace.

That was one play of many...and you're going to point to it as THE reason we lost to Cincinnati?

Come on B2B- you're better than that.

[Legacy User]

Care to elaborate? Example? I think we can pick 1 example when every player on our roster "screwed the pooch". Curious which massive mistake a $1MM player committed that was so egregious.

He allowed Geno Atkins to run free at our $100M player on the turning point of the game.

My point is not that they should overpay Pouncey, only that there is a long way down to Wallace.

Is a completely healed Geno Atkins such a mop that Pouncey would had dusted him off with his little pinky? I don't think there is a center in the league that can totally shutdown a massive premier DT/NT. Not Mangold, not nobody. Even big guards like Ramon Foster claims the sniffles when a fully charged Ngata type comes to town "Go get him Leggo!"


any who, Tomlin has no intention of shelving Wallace and asking Colbert to get someone else. MT sees Wallace as above the line, me too.

[bradshaw2ben]

Care to elaborate? Example? I think we can pick 1 example when every player on our roster "screwed the pooch". Curious which massive mistake a $1MM player committed that was so egregious.

He allowed Geno Atkins to run free at our $100M player on the turning point of the game.

My point is not that they should overpay Pouncey, only that there is a long way down to Wallace.

That was one play of many...and you're going to point to it as THE reason we lost to Cincinnati?

Come on B2B- you're better than that.

it was not the only mistake-- I'm the one who outlined a whole team of mistakes in my article.

I'm saying it was a very, very bad play at a very, very bad time

[jeemie]

I'm saying it was a very, very bad play at a very, very bad time

Right- but you hinted at a very dubious cause and effect connection:

"Because we had Cody Wallace instead of Maurkice Pouncey (in your words, we "had a $1 MM center"), we lost the Bengals' game".

This is not even close to the truth.

[bradshaw2ben]

no, I did no such thing-- my position is that having Pouncey helps, sometimes a lot. He's a lot less likely to fail, and that give the Steelers a better chance to win. It's why the question of what constitutes too much money is complex.

[jeemie]

no, I did no such thing-- my position is that having Pouncey helps, sometimes a lot. He's a lot less likely to fail, and that give the Steelers a better chance to win. It's why the question of what constitutes too much money is complex.

The question isn't complex at all.

It's a simple question...the question is "What skill do you need at position x, and what do you need to spend per year to get that skill?"

In the case of center? Here's what the teams that would be in the playoffs right now, other than the Steelers are spending (Pouncey costs $8,827,325, Wallace $1,160,000), in avg $/year, on that position:

Patriots: $425,000
Jets: $7,725,000
Bengals: $669,114
Colts: $645,027
Broncos: $656,422
Raiders: $8,900,000
Giants: $1,219,337
Vikings: $8,500,000
Packers: $601,250
Panthers: $8,816,000
Cardinals: $1,400,000

Average: $3.6 M
Median: $1.2 M

7 of the 11 other contenders pay their centers $1.4 M/year or less.

Now- to truly prove something, we would have to trend this out over several years, and then maybe limit it to the teams that have gotten to the championship games (since Super Bowls are the goal, not just contending for the playoffs).

But it seems we can find the skill we need at center to be competitive for a lot less than ~$9 M/year.

[Legacy User]

no, I did no such thing-- my position is that having Pouncey helps, sometimes a lot. He's a lot less likely to fail, and that give the Steelers a better chance to win. It's why the question of what constitutes too much money is complex.

In pass pro perhaps Pouncey has a better chance only because of his lateral movement. In one play (can't remember the game) a LB ran through a gap 3 or 4 yards to Wallaces left. By the time Wallace saw it he could only get a hand on the LB's shoulder. Perhaps Pouncey gets a decent chip in there, perhaps not. Seemed the DC outfoxed Haley would be more like it.

[lifelongsteel]

no, I did no such thing-- my position is that having Pouncey helps, sometimes a lot. He's a lot less likely to fail, and that give the Steelers a better chance to win. It's why the question of what constitutes too much money is complex.

The question isn't complex at all.

It's a simple question...the question is "What skill do you need at position x, and what do you need to spend per year to get that skill?"

In the case of center? Here's what the teams that would be in the playoffs right now, other than the Steelers are spending (Pouncey costs $8,827,325, Wallace $1,160,000), in avg $/year, on that position:

Patriots: $425,000
Jets: $7,725,000
Bengals: $669,114
Colts: $645,027
Broncos: $656,422
Raiders: $8,900,000
Giants: $1,219,337
Vikings: $8,500,000
Packers: $601,250
Panthers: $8,816,000
Cardinals: $1,400,000

Average: $3.6 M
Median: $1.2 M

7 of the 11 other contenders pay their centers $1.4 M/year or less.

Now- to truly prove something, we would have to trend this out over several years, and then maybe limit it to the teams that have gotten to the championship games (since Super Bowls are the goal, not just contending for the playoffs).

But it seems we can find the skill we need at center to be competitive for a lot less than ~$9 M/year.

I think your numbers are quite aways off. Ex. the Pats primary center is Brian Stork who is a $2.7M a year player. Russell Bodine for the Bengals is a $2.7M a year player. Your also looking at a bunch of players on C1 who will make a lot more in C2.

[jeemie]

I think your numbers are quite aways off. Ex. the Pats primary center is Brian Stork who is a $2.7M a year player. Russell Bodine for the Bengals is a $2.7M a year player. Your also looking at a bunch of players on C1 who will make a lot more in C2.

Both Bodine's and Stork's entire contract are $2.7 M a piece, not their annual average salaries.

And you are correct- a lot of those contracts are C$1 contracts- yet the teams are still competing for a playoff berth and are Super Bowl contenders.

That's Belichick's whole strategy for his team- draft often and only sign a few key players to multiple deals- wave in new C$1s when the old C$1s expire.

[lifelongsteel]

I think your numbers are quite aways off. Ex. the Pats primary center is Brian Stork who is a $2.7M a year player. Russell Bodine for the Bengals is a $2.7M a year player. Your also looking at a bunch of players on C1 who will make a lot more in C2.

Both Bodine's and Stork's entire contract are $2.7 M a piece, not their annual average salaries.

And you are correct- a lot of those contracts are C$1 contracts- yet the teams are still competing for a playoff berth and are Super Bowl contenders.

That's Belichick's whole strategy for his team- draft often and only sign a few key players to multiple deals- wave in new C$1s when the old C$1s expire.

You are right. my bad. rookie contracts

You're mostly right on BB's strategy. He builds the core of this team through the draft, he adds "value" free agents. often times bad character guys who he knows can be held in check with their strong culture of, you guessed it, drafted guys. Thankfully he hasn't drafted that well or his team would be a real handful.

[jeemie]

I think your numbers are quite aways off. Ex. the Pats primary center is Brian Stork who is a $2.7M a year player. Russell Bodine for the Bengals is a $2.7M a year player. Your also looking at a bunch of players on C1 who will make a lot more in C2.

Both Bodine's and Stork's entire contract are $2.7 M a piece, not their annual average salaries.

And you are correct- a lot of those contracts are C$1 contracts- yet the teams are still competing for a playoff berth and are Super Bowl contenders.

That's Belichick's whole strategy for his team- draft often and only sign a few key players to multiple deals- wave in new C$1s when the old C$1s expire.

You are right. my bad. rookie contracts

You're mostly right on BB's strategy. He builds the core of this team through the draft, he adds "value" free agents. often times bad character guys who he knows can be held in check with their strong culture of, you guessed it, drafted guys. Thankfully he hasn't drafted that well or his team would be a real handful.

I agree you should build through the drafts.

I believe you should be real picky about who you give C$2 contracts and C$3 contracts too.

That's where the Steelers have messed up in recent years...too many big money deals...many of them not structured very well either.

[lifelongsteel]

I believe you should be real picky about who you give C$2 contracts and C$3 contracts too.

That's where the Steelers have messed up in recent years...too many big money deals...many of them not structured very well either.

What are the big money deals that went poorly?

They paid for:
Pouncey
Gilbert
AB
Heyward
Cortez

They didn't pay for:
Wallace
Lewis
Sanders

The mistakes are with Lewis/Cortez, which are linked - 1 mistake caused the other

You could consider Sanders a mistake, but I think they did a pretty good job replacing him with a cheaper model

The AB, Heyward, Gilbert and Wallace decisions look great

We can, and will, debate Pouncey all day. I'm ok with the deal.

That's a pretty good track record imo