Player Development

[Deebo]

The commentary and seeing Kendrick Green succeeding elsewhere got me thinking about how we develop players.

Outside of Highsmigth and Watt, who can you say that has come here as a rookie or FA and has improved under this coaching staff?

I think of Levi Wallace and I thought he had a solid first season with us before injuries set in. Now he's an absolute liability
Harris still struggles to find holes.
After a decent rookie year, it seemed like Bush didn't want to be a football player any longer

Leal and Loudermilk have been underwhelming
KP has looked like he's regressed slightly (let's not get into the playcalling in this thread).

I hate to think that this will be the best we see Jones/JPJ/Betson play their entire career.

Discuss

[SteelerDayTrader]

Rooney doesn’t pay for top assistants

That’s fairly obvious

[Pabst]

Depends where your starting point is and what you mean by "improved", but I'll start with 2016 because there were a few good examples picked that year:
- Javon Hargrave
- Mike Hilton was picked up off the scrap heap and became a very good slot CB
- Cam Sutton went from 3rd round pick to a solid #2/slot CB
- Diontae Johnson, despite his warts, is a 1,000 yard WR picked at the end of the 3rd.
- Pat Freiermuth had 60+ catches in his first 2 seasons.


For Free Agents:
- Alualu was very good for a few years after signing
- Robert Spillane, while not a superstar, was a good player picked off the scrap heap.
- I'd call Montravius Adams a good out-of-nowhere signing, but other may disagree


If I may nitpick a bit, calling a guy like Loudermilk "underwhelming" is a bit unfair - He was a 5th round pick, what exactly is the expectation there? Also, Green barely played 4 games in Houston before landing on IR. Not sure if I'd go as far as saying he "succeeded" elsewhere.

And lastly, just to level-set expectations: Coming out of a draft with one quality starter, one mid-tier starter, and a pair of backups/STers is a very good draft. Under Colbert, the Steelers ability to hit on late draft picks, UDFA, and FA signings was roughly the same in the first half of Colbert's tenure vs the 2nd half. It was the huge % of first round misses during his last 10 years that set the team back.

[SteelerDayTrader]

Depends where your starting point is and what you mean by "improved", but I'll start with 2016 because there were a few good examples picked that year:
- Javon Hargrave
- Mike Hilton was picked up off the scrap heap and became a very good slot CB
- Cam Sutton went from 3rd round pick to a solid #2/slot CB
- Diontae Johnson, despite his warts, is a 1,000 yard WR picked at the end of the 3rd.
- Pat Freiermuth had 60+ catches in his first 2 seasons.


For Free Agents:
- Alualu was very good for a few years after signing
- Robert Spillane, while not a superstar, was a good player picked off the scrap heap.
- I'd call Montravius Adams a good out-of-nowhere signing, but other may disagree


If I may nitpick a bit, calling a guy like Loudermilk "underwhelming" is a bit unfair - He was a 5th round pick, what exactly is the expectation there? Also, Green barely played 4 games in Houston before landing on IR. Not sure if I'd go as far as saying he "succeeded" elsewhere.

And lastly, just to level-set expectations: Coming out of a draft with one quality starter, one mid-tier starter, and a pair of backups/STers is a very good draft. Under Colbert, the Steelers ability to hit on late draft picks, UDFA, and FA signings was roughly the same in the first half of Colbert's tenure vs the 2nd half. It was the huge % of first round misses during his last 10 years that set the team back.

No it’s not

That means at best it would take you eleven years to flip a team where half the starters aren’t very good

Not very good at all

[W&M_Steeler]

The commentary and seeing Kendrick Green succeeding elsewhere got me thinking about how we develop players.

Outside of Highsmigth and Watt, who can you say that has come here as a rookie or FA and has improved under this coaching staff?

I think of Levi Wallace and I thought he had a solid first season with us before injuries set in. Now he's an absolute liability
Harris still struggles to find holes.
After a decent rookie year, it seemed like Bush didn't want to be a football player any longer

Leal and Loudermilk have been underwhelming
KP has looked like he's regressed slightly (let's not get into the playcalling in this thread).

I hate to think that this will be the best we see Jones/JPJ/Betson play their entire career.

Discuss

Not really disagreeing with you, but what has Kendrick Green done that's so great? A few half decent games at a different position?

I think it's hard to tease out how much of the problem with this team and how much is coaching. I think for the most part we have a collection of JAGs (particularly on offense) who can't even reach their low ceilings because of terrible coaching (again, particularly on offense). The team's record so far thus year is a mirage based largely on the Herculean efforts of Watt and Highsmith. My bet is that Tomlin & Co leaving is a necessary step for improvement, but far from a sufficient one.

[Pabst]

No it’s not

That means at best it would take you eleven years to flip a team where half the starters aren’t very good

Not very good at all

OK, let's use an example:

A totally random NFL team has just gone 2-14 and fired their head coach & GM. This team has finished 4-12 or worse in 4 of the last 6 seasons and they haven't won a playoff game in 20 years. Here's how those drafts played out:

2013 - One elite player, one quality starter, one backup RB.
2014 - One role player, one average starter
2015 - One All Pro, one quality starter, two journeymen starters
2016 - Two elite players, one backup
2017 - One elite player, one role player
2018 - One spot starter
2019 - One decent starter, one decent KR

^ This is the Kansas City Chiefs and they won a Super Bowl in the 2019 season. Out of 50 draft picks across 7 years:
- Four became truly elite players: Kelce, Jones, Hill, and Mahomes
- Five became average-to-good starters Fisher, Tardif, Morse, Nnadi, and Thornhill
- Two (Stephen Nelson and Kareem Hunt) were good but got themselves into trouble.

The rest were either role players, backups, or busts. 11 of whom appeared in 16 games or fewer in the NFL (the Steelers had 14 in that same span out of 56 picks, for those curious)

They took 2 years to get from #1 overall pick to playoff win, and 7 years to get to perennial juggernaut.

[Deebo]

The commentary and seeing Kendrick Green succeeding elsewhere got me thinking about how we develop players.

Outside of Highsmigth and Watt, who can you say that has come here as a rookie or FA and has improved under this coaching staff?

I think of Levi Wallace and I thought he had a solid first season with us before injuries set in. Now he's an absolute liability
Harris still struggles to find holes.
After a decent rookie year, it seemed like Bush didn't want to be a football player any longer

Leal and Loudermilk have been underwhelming
KP has looked like he's regressed slightly (let's not get into the playcalling in this thread).

I hate to think that this will be the best we see Jones/JPJ/Betson play their entire career.

Discuss

Not really disagreeing with you, but what has Kendrick Green done that's so great? A few half decent games at a different position?

I think it's hard to tease out how much of the problem with this team and how much is coaching. I think for the most part we have a collection of JAGs (particularly on offense) who can't even reach their low ceilings because of terrible coaching (again, particularly on offense). The team's record so far thus year is a mirage based largely on the Herculean efforts of Watt and Highsmith. My bet is that Tomlin & Co leaving is a necessary step for improvement, but far from a sufficient one.

I don't think he's been "great", but I'd classify him as functional with Hou. In his time here I thought he was one of the worst Olinemen I've ever seen put on the Steeler uniform.

So maybe this discussion could be not only about Player Development but also putting players in position to succeed? Seems like a failure here as well

[Deebo]

Depends where your starting point is and what you mean by "improved", but I'll start with 2016 because there were a few good examples picked that year:
- Javon Hargrave
- Mike Hilton was picked up off the scrap heap and became a very good slot CB
- Cam Sutton went from 3rd round pick to a solid #2/slot CB
- Diontae Johnson, despite his warts, is a 1,000 yard WR picked at the end of the 3rd.
- Pat Freiermuth had 60+ catches in his first 2 seasons.


For Free Agents:
- Alualu was very good for a few years after signing
- Robert Spillane, while not a superstar, was a good player picked off the scrap heap.
- I'd call Montravius Adams a good out-of-nowhere signing, but other may disagree


If I may nitpick a bit, calling a guy like Loudermilk "underwhelming" is a bit unfair - He was a 5th round pick, what exactly is the expectation there? Also, Green barely played 4 games in Houston before landing on IR. Not sure if I'd go as far as saying he "succeeded" elsewhere.

And lastly, just to level-set expectations: Coming out of a draft with one quality starter, one mid-tier starter, and a pair of backups/STers is a very good draft. Under Colbert, the Steelers ability to hit on late draft picks, UDFA, and FA signings was roughly the same in the first half of Colbert's tenure vs the 2nd half. It was the huge % of first round misses during his last 10 years that set the team back.

I should have tightened up the parameters a bit more and said the past few years (say 2019).

To your comments about DJ and Muth. I guess that is my underlying point: I feel that DJ has regressed since his rookie year. Muth is about the same after a promising rookie year. Claypool seems like another example to support my claim. Dude looked like a stud and then somehow got the idea in his head he should be jumping to catch every football.

In terms of Spillane and Adams, they seemed pretty much as advertised prior to their arrival.

[SteelerDayTrader]

No it’s not

That means at best it would take you eleven years to flip a team where half the starters aren’t very good

Not very good at all

OK, let's use an example:

A totally random NFL team has just gone 2-14 and fired their head coach & GM. This team has finished 4-12 or worse in 4 of the last 6 seasons and they haven't won a playoff game in 20 years. Here's how those drafts played out:

2013 - One elite player, one quality starter, one backup RB.
2014 - One role player, one average starter
2015 - One All Pro, one quality starter, two journeymen starters
2016 - Two elite players, one backup
2017 - One elite player, one role player
2018 - One spot starter
2019 - One decent starter, one decent KR

^ This is the Kansas City Chiefs and they won a Super Bowl in the 2019 season. Out of 50 draft picks across 7 years:
- Four became truly elite players: Kelce, Jones, Hill, and Mahomes
- Five became average-to-good starters Fisher, Tardif, Morse, Nnadi, and Thornhill
- Two (Stephen Nelson and Kareem Hunt) were good but got themselves into trouble.

The rest were either role players, backups, or busts. 11 of whom appeared in 16 games or fewer in the NFL (the Steelers had 14 in that same span out of 56 picks, for those curious)

They took 2 years to get from #1 overall pick to playoff win, and 7 years to get to perennial juggernaut.

2 starters in a draft with one of them being “mid tier” is NOT “very good”

[Pabst]

I should have tightened up the parameters a bit more and said the past few years (say 2019).

To your comments about DJ and Muth. I guess that is my underlying point: I feel that DJ has regressed since his rookie year. Muth is about the same after a promising rookie year. Claypool seems like another example to support my claim. Dude looked like a stud and then somehow got the idea in his head he should be jumping to catch every football.

In terms of Spillane and Adams, they seemed pretty much as advertised prior to their arrival.

DJ's best season, but a wide margin, was 2021. That was his 3rd year.
Muth had more catches and (significantly) more yards in his 2nd season.

Claypool, sure, but he also just flamed out in Chicago. That's looking more like a personal problem rather than with the coaching staff.

Regarding Spillane - He appeared in 2 NFL games and had zero defensive snaps prior to signing with the Steelers. How is that "as advertised"? Seems to me that's exactly what we mean by developing a player? Adams, likewise, was signed off a Practice Squad.

[Professor Half Wit]

Rooney doesn’t pay for top assistants

That’s fairly obvious

Kodiak def disagrees.

[Pabst]

2 starters in a draft with one of them being “mid tier” is NOT “very good”

Let's put it this way...I think we can all agree that the 2017 draft was the most stacked in recent history, yes? Mahomes, Watt, Garrett, McCaffrey, and others.

Feel free to fact check/nitpick this, but here's what this draft looked like broken down by team (and I'm being pretty damn generous with how I graded the Bengals, Chiefs, and Giants, btw):

Getting one or fewer quality starters in a draft is the norm in the NFL. When I say "very good" class, I'm saying that getting a good starter and a mid-tier starter will be a top 10 class in any given year. Landing a pair of Pro Bowlers will give you a top 5 class most seasons. Doing better than that (like the Saints did in 2017) puts you in rare territory.

[LakecrestSteeler]

The commentary and seeing Kendrick Green succeeding elsewhere got me thinking about how we develop players.

Outside of Highsmigth and Watt, who can you say that has come here as a rookie or FA and has improved under this coaching staff?

I think of Levi Wallace and I thought he had a solid first season with us before injuries set in. Now he's an absolute liability
Harris still struggles to find holes.
After a decent rookie year, it seemed like Bush didn't want to be a football player any longer

Leal and Loudermilk have been underwhelming
KP has looked like he's regressed slightly (let's not get into the playcalling in this thread).

I hate to think that this will be the best we see Jones/JPJ/Betson play their entire career.

Discuss

Is JPJ starting for the Rams, development or has it been an anchor on the defense preventing Pat P from playing a better suited role for his current skillset?

Not an easy question to answer.

[SteelerDayTrader]

2 starters in a draft with one of them being “mid tier” is NOT “very good”

Let's put it this way...I think we can all agree that the 2017 draft was the most stacked in recent history, yes? Mahomes, Watt, Garrett, McCaffrey, and others.

Feel free to fact check/nitpick this, but here's what this draft looked like broken down by team (and I'm being pretty damn generous with how I graded the Bengals, Chiefs, and Giants, btw):

Getting one or fewer quality starters in a draft is the norm in the NFL. When I say "very good" class, I'm saying that getting a good starter and a mid-tier starter will be a top 10 class in any given year. Landing a pair of Pro Bowlers will give you a top 5 class most seasons. Doing better than that (like the Saints did in 2017) puts you in rare territory.

There are roughly 23-24 starters on every team including nickel/3rd down personnel

Let’s make this more favorable to your bs and settle on 23 AND assume your team has a good franchise QB for the next 11 years

That leaves 22 guys you are gonna rollover in 11 years

Lol

And 11 of those are mid tier types ?

Enjoy 5-12 land

Lolololz

[Pabst]

And 11 of those are mid tier types ?

Give or take, yes. Here are some names:

1. Max Starks
2. Chris Kemoeatu
3. Justin Hartwig
4. Darnell Stapleton
5. Willie Colon
6. Matt Spaeth

^ There's 6 starters that i would call below average.

7. Willie Parker
8. Larry Foote
9. Deshea Townsend

^ There's 3 more starters that I'd slot firmly into the "average" tier.

Also worth noting that Hines, Aaron Smith, and James Farrior were still producing at high level despite being 32 or older that year.


If you'd like a more recent example:
1. Isiah Pacheco
2. Marquez Valdes-Scanting
3. Trey Smith
4. Andrew Wylie
5. Mike Danna
6. Derrick Nnadi
7. Leo Chenal
8. L'Jarius Sneed
9. Juan Thornhill
10. Justin Reid

^ There's 10 starters from Kansas City's Super Bowl winning team that are average at best.

[SteelerDayTrader]

And 11 of those are mid tier types ?

Give or take, yes. Here are some names:

1. Max Starks
2. Chris Kemoeatu
3. Justin Hartwig
4. Darnell Stapleton
5. Willie Colon
6. Matt Spaeth

^ There's 6 starters that i would call below average.

7. Willie Parker
8. Larry Foote
9. Deshea Townsend

^ There's 3 more starters that I'd slot firmly into the "average" tier.

Also worth noting that Hines, Aaron Smith, and James Farrior were still producing at high level despite being 32 or older that year.


If you'd like a more recent example:
1. Isiah Pacheco
2. Marquez Valdes-Scanting
3. Trey Smith
4. Andrew Wylie
5. Mike Danna
6. Derrick Nnadi
7. Leo Chenal
8. L'Jarius Sneed
9. Juan Thornhill
10. Justin Reid

^ There's 10 starters from Kansas City's Super Bowl winning team that are average at best.

Like I said

2 starters a year with 1 being “mid tier”

IS NOT a “very good” draft


Lolololz

[Pabst]

Like I said

2 starters a year with 1 being “mid tier”

IS NOT a “very good” draft


Lolololz

Please define a "good draft".

Please show me a team that would meet your standard of "very good" over a period of 5 - 10 years.


Somebody made the Batting Average analogy with you a while back and it's apt: What you're doing is looking at a hitter with a .300 BA and saying he sucks because he misses 70% of the time.

[SteelerDayTrader]

Like I said

2 starters a year with 1 being “mid tier”

IS NOT a “very good” draft


Lolololz

Please define a "good draft".

Please show me a team that would meet your standard of "very good" over a period of 5 - 10 years.


Somebody made the Batting Average analogy with you a while back and it's apt: What you're doing is looking at a hitter with a .300 BA and saying he sucks because he misses 70% of the time.

Listen you argumentative SOB

Id bet the Steelers have met your average 2 per draft parameter over the last decade or so

Would ANYONE in their right mind say they’ve drafted well overall and have maintained a Lombardi competitive team ??

Your problem is you just come up with random bullshit to argue with someone and then you go off the rails trying to defend something you only intended as a reason to be an argumentative bitch

[Pabst]

Listen you argumentative SOB

Id bet the Steelers have met your average 2 per draft parameter over the last decade or so

Would ANYONE in their right mind say they’ve drafted well overall and have maintained a Lombardi competitive team ??

Your problem is you just come up with random bullshit to argue with someone and then you go off the rails trying to defend something you only intended as a reason to be an argumentative bitch

Well, what I said was:

Under Colbert, the Steelers ability to hit on late draft picks, UDFA, and FA signings was roughly the same in the first half of Colbert's tenure vs the 2nd half. It was the huge % of first round misses during his last 10 years that set the team back.

I also said:

Getting one or fewer quality starters in a draft is the norm in the NFL. When I say "very good" class, I'm saying that getting a good starter and a mid-tier starter will be a top 10 class in any given year. Landing a pair of Pro Bowlers will give you a top 5 class most seasons. Doing better than that (like the Saints did in 2017) puts you in rare territory.

Let's set aside 2022 and 2023 (too early to judge) and look specifically at the 10 drafts between 2012-2021.

2012: Above Average (Decastro, Beachum)
2013: Average to Above average (Le'veon, Vince Williams)
2014: Average to Above average - Injury to Shazier killed this class.
2015: Below Average / Bad: Dupree had 2 good seasons, so not sure if I'd put him in the "quality starter" tier.
2016: Below average (Hargrave)
2017: Above Average / Top Tier (Watt, Juju, Sutton, Conner)
2018: Below average (2 iffy starters in Edmunds, Chuks)
2019: Below Average (Diontae can still save this grade if he comes roaring back)
2020: Average (Highsmith)
2021: Average....ish. We'll see what happens with Harris, Freiermuth, Moore long term

The 2013 and 2014 classes are a bit murky (depending on how good you thnk Vince Williams was and/or how you account for injuries). I'll just call 2013 "average" and 2014 "above average" for this post. So...based on the strict letter-of-the-law criteria laid out in my first post, over these 10 drafts, I'd say:

4 would fall below league average
3 would fall right around average
3 are above average (very good, to remain consistent) or better

So....yeah. I'd say the Steelers are right in the middle of the pack in the NFL when it comes to drafting over the past decade. Given they're consistently a 9 win team, I'd say that fits the trend.

[SteelerDayTrader]

As with much of your blibbity blab I’m not gonna read that monstrosity closely

2 starters in a draft with 1 being “mid tier” is not “very good”

Obfuscate as much as you wish it won’t change the facts

[bradshaw2ben]

If you'd like a more recent example:
1. Isiah Pacheco
2. Marquez Valdes-Scanting
3. Trey Smith
4. Andrew Wylie
5. Mike Danna
6. Derrick Nnadi
7. Leo Chenal
8. L'Jarius Sneed
9. Juan Thornhill
10. Justin Reid

^ There's 10 starters from Kansas City's Super Bowl winning team that are average at best.

Whoa. You're really underselling Sneed. The safeties, NNadi, & Trey Smith are also very good.

Personally, I'd rather have Pacheco than either of our RBs, and I wasn't the highest on him coming out because I thought he was too upright. But he has the heart of a lion and the speed of a gazelle. The other guys you mention are average guys who are solid contributors.

[Pabst]

If you'd like a more recent example:
1. Isiah Pacheco
2. Marquez Valdes-Scanting
3. Trey Smith
4. Andrew Wylie
5. Mike Danna
6. Derrick Nnadi
7. Leo Chenal
8. L'Jarius Sneed
9. Juan Thornhill
10. Justin Reid

^ There's 10 starters from Kansas City's Super Bowl winning team that are average at best.

Whoa. You're really underselling Sneed. The safeties, NNadi, & Trey Smith are also very good.

Personally, I'd rather have Pacheco than either of our RBs, and I wasn't the highest on him coming out because I thought he was too upright. But he has the heart of a lion and the speed of a gazelle. The other guys you mention are average guys who are solid contributors.

I think Nnadi is a nice role player who benefits from being next to Chris Jones.
Similarly I think pretty much the entire back 7 of the Chiefs is mostly average but are made to look better because they have a strong pass rush and the Chiefs offense constantly forces opponents to play catch up
Regarding Pacheco - being better than the Steelers RBs doesn't necessarily mean he's an above average starter.


This is my general point - a SB roster doesn't need an elite player at every position. With rare exceptions, A Super Bowl contender will have an elite QB then maybe 3 or 4 other All Pro talents on the roster. The rest of the roster is about finding players who can fit specific roles.

[Pabst]

As with much of your blibbity blab I’m not gonna read that monstrosity closely

2 starters in a draft with 1 being “mid tier” is not “very good”

Obfuscate as much as you wish it won’t change the facts

Please tell me your criteria for very good and provide examples. Thanks.

[SteelerDayTrader]

As with much of your blibbity blab I’m not gonna read that monstrosity closely

2 starters in a draft with 1 being “mid tier” is not “very good”

Obfuscate as much as you wish it won’t change the facts

Please tell me your criteria for very good and provide examples. Thanks.

At least

2 C2s with one being an early starter
1 solid contributing role player

Steelers 98’-07’

[Stosh-67]

2005 Steelers had a load of talent.

( 3 ) HOFers. Ben, Faneca, Troy....
( 1 ) HOFer coming off the bench in the Bus

+ Borderline - Eventual HOF in Hines.

Very Good players - Heath, Marvel Smith, Hartings, AA Smith, Casey, Farrior, Porter, Ike, Hope.

Average to above average. FWP, ARE, Starks, Kimo, Foote, Townsend.

16 of those above were home grown I believe.
Of the starters, only Farrior, Kimo and Hartings were imports


QB Ben Roethlisberger 23
RB Willie Parker 25
FB Dan Kreider 28
WR Antwaan Randle El 26
WR Hines Ward 29
TE Heath Miller 23
LT Marvel Smith 27
LG Alan Faneca*+ 29
C Jeff Hartings 33
RG Kendall Simmons 26
RT Max Starks 23

Defensive Starters
LDE Aaron Smith 29
NT Casey Hampton* 28
RDE Kimo von Oelhoffen 34
LOLB Clark Haggans 28
LILB James Farrior 30
RILB Larry Foote 25
ROLB Joey Porter* 28
LCB Ike Taylor 25
RCB Deshea Townsend 30
SS Troy Polamalu*+ 24
FS Chris Hope 25

[Obviously]

As with much of your blibbity blab I’m not gonna read that monstrosity closely

2 starters in a draft with 1 being “mid tier” is not “very good”

Obfuscate as much as you wish it won’t change the facts

This fuckin' clown.

Pabst brings FACTS, STATS, RESEARCH, CLARITY and, when Court Jester takes a tantrum, attempts to explain his position so a five-year old can understand. Still The Dope still can't get it. What a dolt!

[Pabst]

Coming out of a draft with one quality starter, one mid-tier starter, and a pair of backups/STers is a very good draft

2 C2s with one being an early starter
1 solid contributing role player

I'm not sure if I just wasted my morning debating someone with the IQ of brick dust that didn't realize he agreed with ~95% of what I said, or if I somehow convinced him and he's trying to save face by slightly tweaking my original post. I'm betting on the former.

[Stosh-67]

2008 Steelers.
Not the talent the 2005 team had...
( 2 ) HOFers in Ben and Troy
( 2 ) borderline HOFers in Hines and Harrison ( not enough numbers for JH )

Very good players in Holmes, Heath, AA Smith, Casey, Woodley, Farrior, Ike, Clark.

Above average, FWP, Starks, Keisel,

QB Ben Roethlisberger 26
RB Willie Parker 28
WR Santonio Holmes 24
WR Hines Ward 32
TE Heath Miller 26
TE Matt Spaeth 25
LT Max Starks 26
LG Chris Kemoeatu 25
C Justin Hartwig 30
RG Darnell Stapleton 23
RT Willie Colon 25

Defensive Starters
LDE Aaron Smith 32
NT Casey Hampton 31
RDE Brett Keisel 30
LOLB LaMarr Woodley 24
LILB James Farrior* 33
RILB Larry Foote 28
ROLB James Harrison*+ 30
LCB Ike Taylor 28
RCB Bryant McFadden 27
SS Troy Polamalu*+ 27
FS Ryan Clark 29

[Pabst]

As with much of your blibbity blab I’m not gonna read that monstrosity closely

2 starters in a draft with 1 being “mid tier” is not “very good”

Obfuscate as much as you wish it won’t change the facts

This fuckin' clown.

Pabst brings FACTS, STATS, RESEARCH, CLARITY and, when Court Jester takes a tantrum, attempts to explain his position so a five-year old can understand. Still The Dope still can't get it. What a dolt!

Much appreciated, thanks.

I guess to circle all the way back to @Deebo's original post - I don't think the Steelers are *bad* in terms of drafting, UFA, signings, development, etc. I think they have been about average for the last 5-10 years...It's just that they were so good for so long that our perception is a bit skewed (if that makes sense).

This is why I tend to push back on the folks who want to blow everything up. No need for a chainsaw when a scalpel can do the job.

[Pabst]

Above average, FWP, Starks, Keisel,

OK....so this is something I was wanting to flesh out wrt B2B's post and i think it's an interesting discussion: What makes a player above/below average?

Some guys (Watt, Troy, Ben) are obviously elite.

But what about players like FWP, Max Starks, or Ike Taylor?

Parker had one elite trait and he played his prime years behind an elite line with a top flight QB.
Starks could have been considered an above average player as a RT with 3 Pro Bowlers on the OL....but he was certainly a below average LT.
Ike Taylor could lock down a team's #1 WR...but he had a critical flaw to his game (no ball skills).

How much was the production from these 3 a product of the talent around them? How much doesn't Taylor's lack of INT's weigh against him? How much does a guy's role factor in (I think Robert Spillane would have been very good as a buck LB ala Larry Foote, but he wasn't anything special as the every down LB)

I don't know the answer.