Butler hints the DL may be more involved in the pass rush

[jeemie]

Article in the PG: http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/stee ... 1506110186

That's the only nugget I really got out of this article- most everything else was vague "We'll change what we change" stuff.

Be interesting to see if it's true, and how it works.

Well- I did like the bit where he said his wife was pissed at him when he passed up a chance to move to another team as DC without consulting her first!

[Steelafan77]

That was the "suspected" hang up over shadowing Ziggy Hood when he was here. Hood's best trait was penetrating as a pass rusher. Instead of holding the point and eating up blockers.

Tuitt, McLendon and Heyward (McCullers too) should only benefit from this "wrinkle" as well as the LB's/DB's. We as fans have been calling for this "wrinkle" for a long time. Butler is going to bring some good change to this defense IMO.


Video from steelers.com
http://www.steelers.com/videos/videos/K ... d41eb41b62

[Thrillsseeker]

I truly hope this comes to fruition. I also hope that while this is happening and pressure gets turned up a notch, we can also still stop the run.

So ready for this season to start!!!!!!

[Kodiak]

Saw an article with Ike talking about Butler....admitted he had reservations at first, but said Butler is a REALLY smart guy and Ike expects the defense to be pretty good this year.

Off-topic, but same article mentioned Troy is in Ike's will. So I guess Ike will be giving the induction speech, unless does another HOFer have to do that?

[Scunge]

I know this hasn't been talked about much but to me this is a drastically different approach to our defense. To have a DC coaching our 3-4 that WANTS and EXPECTS our defensive linemen to get pressure, sacks? LeBeau never cared about that, he wanted and expected his D-lineman to tie up two blockers and let his LBers get the glory. He put all of the pressure and responsibility on his OLBers specifically.

That isn't a totally drastic departure? The hell it isn't.

I have been banging this drum for a couple years now. I have been talking of how Butler played inside LBer for Seattle and they got pressure from their front 3 defensive lineman. Sure, you take Harrison, Woodley, Porter and they have combined for over 200 sacks. But guess what? When Butler was in Seattle he first hand was able to watch, Jacob Greene, Joe Nash and Jeff Bryant combine for over 200 sacks. His 3 man defensive line was generating pressure and sacks from a 3-4 defense. Greene had 5 seasons where he was over 12 sacks, with his highest total being 16. The NT Nash was able to have seasons where he had 7, 8 and 9 sacks. Jeff Bryant was able to have three seasons where he was over 8 sacks, with the highest being 14.5.

So, you have a DC who is GOING to get his D-linemen actively involved in pass rushing and then we draft a short ball hawking CB in the second round who is the anti-LeBeau type. Sure looks like change is happening to me and it couldn't come at a better time.

[Thrillsseeker]

I know this hasn't been talked about much but to me this is a drastically different approach to our defense. To have a DC coaching our 3-4 that WANTS and EXPECTS our defensive linemen to get pressure, sacks? LeBeau never cared about that, he wanted and expected his D-lineman to tie up two blockers and let his LBers get the glory. He put all of the pressure and responsibility on his OLBers specifically.

That isn't a totally drastic departure? The hell it isn't.

I have been banging this drum for a couple years now. I have been talking of how Butler played inside LBer for Seattle and they got pressure from their front 3 defensive lineman. Sure, you take Harrison, Woodley, Porter and they have combined for over 200 sacks. But guess what? When Butler was in Seattle he first hand was able to watch, Jacob Greene, Joe Nash and Jeff Bryant combine for over 200 sacks. His 3 man defensive line was generating pressure and sacks from a 3-4 defense. Greene had 5 seasons where he was over 12 sacks, with his highest total being 16. The NT Nash was able to have seasons where he had 7, 8 and 9 sacks. Jeff Bryant was able to have three seasons where he was over 8 sacks, with the highest being 14.5.

So, you have a DC who is GOING to get his D-linemen actively involved in pass rushing and then we draft a short ball hawking CB in the second round who is the anti-LeBeau type. Sure looks like change is happening to me and it couldn't come at a better time.

I am SteelThrillsseeker and I approve this message.

Spot on.

+1

[Legacy User]

I know this hasn't been talked about much but to me this is a drastically different approach to our defense. To have a DC coaching our 3-4 that WANTS and EXPECTS our defensive linemen to get pressure, sacks? LeBeau never cared about that, he wanted and expected his D-lineman to tie up two blockers and let his LBers get the glory. He put all of the pressure and responsibility on his OLBers specifically.

That isn't a totally drastic departure? The hell it isn't.

I have been banging this drum for a couple years now. I have been talking of how Butler played inside LBer for Seattle and they got pressure from their front 3 defensive lineman. Sure, you take Harrison, Woodley, Porter and they have combined for over 200 sacks. But guess what? When Butler was in Seattle he first hand was able to watch, Jacob Greene, Joe Nash and Jeff Bryant combine for over 200 sacks. His 3 man defensive line was generating pressure and sacks from a 3-4 defense. Greene had 5 seasons where he was over 12 sacks, with his highest total being 16. The NT Nash was able to have seasons where he had 7, 8 and 9 sacks. Jeff Bryant was able to have three seasons where he was over 8 sacks, with the highest being 14.5.

So, you have a DC who is GOING to get his D-linemen actively involved in pass rushing and then we draft a short ball hawking CB in the second round who is the anti-LeBeau type. Sure looks like change is happening to me and it couldn't come at a better time.

I definitely agree.

I think it makes perfect sense that Butler plans on unleashing the d-line. Not only does his background point to this as being a distinct possibility, but just look at the Steelers' roster! Heyward and McClendon are both good pass-rushers, and Tuitt and McCullers show a lot of promise in that area as well. As for the Steelers' OLBs, Harrison is ancient, Moats is mediocre, Jones is still largely unproven in his third year, and Bud Dupree is a completely raw rookie. The personnel may well be dictating this decision as much as any other factor is.

[Havoc]

I'm more excited about the possibilities for this team going into the season than I have been in years.

Like many others, I hope the DL is more involved in the pass rush. The shortest path to the qb is up the middle.

In the Hayward video, Hayward says he does not expect too many changes, but there might be a couple more wrinkles and they are not going to share that now.

It's going to be a fascinating season on both sides of the football to see how it all develops and shakes out.

[Steelafan77]

I agree with IncognitoCoup and Scunge, good posts. I would also add, with the style (quick release) offense the NFL has been implementing over the last several season's the theory is that instantaneous/immediate pressure from the DLine may make QB's hang on to the ball longer. Pushing/collapsing the would be passing pocket allowing your (ballhawk) Corners/Safeties/Linebackers time to get in place for that "Splash Play".

[bradshaw2ben]

My only issue with DL penetrating is it is at odds with contain-- playing Seattle and SF this year, to name two, presents different problems for a penetrating DL.

[bradshaw2ben]

My only issue with DL penetrating is it is at odds with contain-- playing Seattle and SF this year, to name two, presents different problems for a penetrating DL.

[Legacy User]

My only issue with DL penetrating is it is at odds with contain-- playing Seattle and SF this year, to name two, presents different problems for a penetrating DL.

It sounds more like a pitcher adding a slider or a changeup to his fastball curve repertoire. Its probably as much determined by the type of offense you're facing across the way. I doubt that anything gets abandoned entirely for the whole season..

Its a good thing.

[SteelerZen]

My only issue with DL penetrating is it is at odds with contain-- playing Seattle and SF this year, to name two, presents different problems for a penetrating DL.

Or do you spy those players with Shazier, and, on some plays, use the OLB for contain. Seems to give a little more flexibility and gives the offense a little more instances of having to guess who's coming and who's staying. Speed on speed in that case.

[Kodiak]

Either the defense needs to generate a lot more turnovers, or they'll have to be 15th or so scoring/yardage to give the offense a chance to carry them to a championship.

Butler has to know his task isn't necessarily a top-5 or top-10 defense this year, but one that can be good enough (at least when it matters).

[V DUB]

Music to my ears. I just hope the they can work out a wave front 7 to shut down the run, if they've decided to send everyone after the QB. Meaning the LB's as well as DL have run/screen duties on the way to the QB. Spread the responsibility/wealth.

[DP39]

I know this hasn't been talked about much but to me this is a drastically different approach to our defense. To have a DC coaching our 3-4 that WANTS and EXPECTS our defensive linemen to get pressure, sacks? LeBeau never cared about that, he wanted and expected his D-lineman to tie up two blockers and let his LBers get the glory. He put all of the pressure and responsibility on his OLBers specifically.

That isn't a totally drastic departure? The hell it isn't.

I have been banging this drum for a couple years now. I have been talking of how Butler played inside LBer for Seattle and they got pressure from their front 3 defensive lineman. Sure, you take Harrison, Woodley, Porter and they have combined for over 200 sacks. But guess what? When Butler was in Seattle he first hand was able to watch, Jacob Greene, Joe Nash and Jeff Bryant combine for over 200 sacks. His 3 man defensive line was generating pressure and sacks from a 3-4 defense. Greene had 5 seasons where he was over 12 sacks, with his highest total being 16. The NT Nash was able to have seasons where he had 7, 8 and 9 sacks. Jeff Bryant was able to have three seasons where he was over 8 sacks, with the highest being 14.5.

So, you have a DC who is GOING to get his D-linemen actively involved in pass rushing and then we draft a short ball hawking CB in the second round who is the anti-LeBeau type. Sure looks like change is happening to me and it couldn't come at a better time.

While I don't disagree, I hope somebody is able to convince John Mitchell that his D linemen are going to change how they've done things for quite a while. He doesn't strike me like the kind of coach that likes change or letting players develop too fast. He is the asst. HC so it could be interesting if he and Butler don't exactly see eye-to-eye on what the D line's responsibility will be.

[Legacy User]

This really began in earnest last season as we saw Kiesel and Heyward penetrating more ofter than Steelers' DE's in the past. I recall articles this time last year wear this was being discussed. Heyward, Tuitt, McLendon, and Kiesel appeared to penetrate more often in 2014 than the DL had before.

[Scunge]

To DP39, I hear what you are saying. I wanted John Mitchell gone with LeBeau but I think he is going to have to get with the program and prove that he can actually coach D-linemen to pass rush. If he can't I can see him being shown the door soon as in next offseason. Mitchell had strong ties with LeBeau and he has been with us since 1994 yet I can't really think of any D-linemen where I thought to myself, wow, that John Mitchell is doing a great job developing pass rushing DEs.

Ray Seals was an accomplished pass rusher before he came to Pittsburgh. He had 8.5 sacks in 11 games for Tampa in 1993, and 5 sacks in 8 starts in 92. His arrow was pointing up and we wisely signed him to a free agent contract. He went on to have a combined 15.5 sacks in 94-95 for us but did John Mitchell do much in developing Ray Seals?

How about Brentson Buckner? He underachieved with us, with Mitchell as his coach but did very well for himself later on with the 49ers and then Carolina.

Kevin Henry? Remember him. John coached him for 7 years and turned him into a mighty pass rusher. 13 sacks in 7 years is nothing to sneeze at, JJ Watt has nothing on him.

Aaron Smith had two seasons where he had 8 sacks but Smith was actually a very effective pass rusher in college, he had 44 sacks, one season at Northern Colorado he had 15.5 sacks. Yet, how come Smith never really flourished as a pass rusher under Mitchell's tutelage? How come Ziggy Hood never became much of a pass rusher with us?

It is almost like he has something against high draft picks, like nothing but disdain for them. The lower the pick, the more agreeable he is to talk about them and pound the table for them. How many times have we heard or read about him saying, no, he has got to break down this player, that player has to unlearn what he has learned, blah, blah, blah. When he talks like that he is almost universally talking about a high draft pick like a Ziggy Hood, or a Cam Heyward or a Stephon Tuitt. And then he will turn around and have nothing but praise for a Steve McLendon, "don't fall asleep on McLendon", he is "going to surprise a lot of people".

Would it kill him just once to offer praise to a high draft pick, to say something like, yes, Heyward has great talent we expect him to become a great pass rusher. Just not in his wheelhouse. I honestly think that Mitchell retards the development of high draft picks. If we had JJ Watts instead of Heyward, Watts would have followed the same career trajectory of Cam, he would not be the same player he currently is with Houston.

I hope John Mitchell surprises me this season and proves me wrong but I just think he is not up to the task of coaching this D-line how to become legitimate pass rushers. The talent is there we need a coach to bring it out and harness it.

[bradshaw2ben]

My only issue with DL penetrating is it is at odds with contain-- playing Seattle and SF this year, to name two, presents different problems for a penetrating DL.

Or do you spy those players with Shazier, and, on some plays, use the OLB for contain. Seems to give a little more flexibility and gives the offense a little more instances of having to guess who's coming and who's staying. Speed on speed in that case.

Contain really kills pass rush unless all the parts are working together... Spying works better I think when DL are controlling lanes of escape.

[jeemie]

Other teams have figured out how to stop the run on their way to the passer.

We should be able to as well.

[bradshaw2ben]

Other teams have figured out how to stop the run on their way to the passer.

We should be able to as well.

Just a different style than what we're accustomed to seeing.

[Jobu]

Other teams have figured out how to stop the run on their way to the passer.

We should be able to as well.

Just a different style than what we're accustomed to seeing.

"Stop the run first" was a successful style when most teams tried to establish the run first. Nowadays, most successful running games play off of the passing attack. You still need to be stout against the run, but it doesn't need to be priority #1.

[drmalba]

He has better athletes like Tuitt and Heyward who might be able to bring it, but i'm not sure this doesn't just mean he's trying to scheme new ways to get interior line pressure to get around what we all know will probably be a big work in progress in the secondary.

[stillcajun]

To DP39, I hear what you are saying. I wanted John Mitchell gone with LeBeau but I think he is going to have to get with the program and prove that he can actually coach D-linemen to pass rush. If he can't I can see him being shown the door soon as in next offseason. Mitchell had strong ties with LeBeau and he has been with us since 1994 yet I can't really think of any D-linemen where I thought to myself, wow, that John Mitchell is doing a great job developing pass rushing DEs.

Ray Seals was an accomplished pass rusher before he came to Pittsburgh. He had 8.5 sacks in 11 games for Tampa in 1993, and 5 sacks in 8 starts in 92. His arrow was pointing up and we wisely signed him to a free agent contract. He went on to have a combined 15.5 sacks in 94-95 for us but did John Mitchell do much in developing Ray Seals?

How about Brentson Buckner? He underachieved with us, with Mitchell as his coach but did very well for himself later on with the 49ers and then Carolina.

Kevin Henry? Remember him. John coached him for 7 years and turned him into a mighty pass rusher. 13 sacks in 7 years is nothing to sneeze at, JJ Watt has nothing on him.

Aaron Smith had two seasons where he had 8 sacks but Smith was actually a very effective pass rusher in college, he had 44 sacks, one season at Northern Colorado he had 15.5 sacks. Yet, how come Smith never really flourished as a pass rusher under Mitchell's tutelage? How come Ziggy Hood never became much of a pass rusher with us?

It is almost like he has something against high draft picks, like nothing but disdain for them. The lower the pick, the more agreeable he is to talk about them and pound the table for them. How many times have we heard or read about him saying, no, he has got to break down this player, that player has to unlearn what he has learned, blah, blah, blah. When he talks like that he is almost universally talking about a high draft pick like a Ziggy Hood, or a Cam Heyward or a Stephon Tuitt. And then he will turn around and have nothing but praise for a Steve McLendon, "don't fall asleep on McLendon", he is "going to surprise a lot of people".

Would it kill him just once to offer praise to a high draft pick, to say something like, yes, Heyward has great talent we expect him to become a great pass rusher. Just not in his wheelhouse. I honestly think that Mitchell retards the development of high draft picks. If we had JJ Watts instead of Heyward, Watts would have followed the same career trajectory of Cam, he would not be the same player he currently is with Houston.

I hope John Mitchell surprises me this season and proves me wrong but I just think he is not up to the task of coaching this D-line how to become legitimate pass rushers. The talent is there we need a coach to bring it out and harness it.

As much as I want to agree with your assessment and it does hold a lot of merit, I'm willing to hold any kind of judgment until I see a finished product along that DL. I said the same about Ray Horton and how the CB's sucked under his tenure. The way they never seemed to be in position to make a play on the ball and the 10yd cushions. Horton leaves and goes to Steelers west as a DC and molds those guys into a really good secondary which plays to the strength of the players. It's going to be interesting how things work out w/ him and Lebeau dancing in Titan land this year.

So as of this moment I'm giving him and Butler a pass until we see how they operate now that they're no longer under the long shadow of the Dick "Godfather" Lebeau.

[Legacy User]

I know this hasn't been talked about much but to me this is a drastically different approach to our defense. To have a DC coaching our 3-4 that WANTS and EXPECTS our defensive linemen to get pressure, sacks? LeBeau never cared about that, he wanted and expected his D-lineman to tie up two blockers and let his LBers get the glory. He put all of the pressure and responsibility on his OLBers specifically.

That isn't a totally drastic departure? The hell it isn't.

I have been banging this drum for a couple years now. I have been talking of how Butler played inside LBer for Seattle and they got pressure from their front 3 defensive lineman. Sure, you take Harrison, Woodley, Porter and they have combined for over 200 sacks. But guess what? When Butler was in Seattle he first hand was able to watch, Jacob Greene, Joe Nash and Jeff Bryant combine for over 200 sacks. His 3 man defensive line was generating pressure and sacks from a 3-4 defense. Greene had 5 seasons where he was over 12 sacks, with his highest total being 16. The NT Nash was able to have seasons where he had 7, 8 and 9 sacks. Jeff Bryant was able to have three seasons where he was over 8 sacks, with the highest being 14.5.

So, you have a DC who is GOING to get his D-linemen actively involved in pass rushing and then we draft a short ball hawking CB in the second round who is the anti-LeBeau type. Sure looks like change is happening to me and it couldn't come at a better time.

I think the math bares this out. If teams are running 1/3 less than they were a decade ago having a 3/4 DL solely absorb run blocks and hold position during passes is pointless. I think the innovative approach would be to disrupt an offenses blocking assignments by having the consistent pass rush come from 2 levels not just 1. With the fact that we now have an up and coming starting DL and some talent on the second wave- we can consistently get pressure on the QB. I'd like to see 15 sacks but more importantly I want to see a lot of hurries and passes knocked down from those guys. We can take a lot of pressure off the new guys at the back if those guys start playing the way they should

[bradshaw2ben]

the biggest change in the league isn't run to pass ratio or the relative importance of the run-- the biggest change is the ability of QBs to read the defense presnap and to adjust accordingly. This used to be a rare QB skill and rarer team skill-- now it's everybody. The difference between the look the defense declares presnap and post-snap is where the rules favoring passing are defeated vs. an elite QB-- or even a good one with a good system/training/receivers. If I'm the DC, I get back to position flexibility and interchangeable parts asap-- what the D will suffer in less stout run D or less tight coverage it should, theoretically more than make up for in delaying the decisions of the QB and thwarting effective audibilization.

Hearkening back to the old days of the first Zone Blitz systems, with a little Seattle Dan Quinn mixed in... the very thing Zivco hated is, to me, where we need to go-- only better. A LB who plays safety and or vice versa. A S who plays CB or vice versa. A DL who can either 2 gap and hold the point or penetrate/rush from the edge. I think we have some tools to work with in this regard... for all his flaws, Shazier is a guy who can fill 3 or 4 roles on a D. He can be Troy-esque, he can be Junior Seau-esque, he can be Kam Chancellor-esque, he can be Vic Beasley-esque. If he's football smart enough and remains healthy for his career, just him being on the field is a deception. Heyward can play in any front. Mike Mitchell can do a lot of things, especially near the LOS. Shamarko doesn't have Chancellor's size or Troy's everything, but he has the ability to be very good at a variety of things. I'd like to see some situational defense with Shamarko, Mitchell, and Holliman + 2 or 3 CBs and 3-4 LBs. 3rd and long with Heyward, Harrison, Timmons, Shazier, Dupree, Mitchell, Shamarko, Gay, Golson, Allen/Blake, and either Tuitt or the extra CB or extra pass rusher like Jarvis-- wow, you've really got something.