Any Tomlin defenders left?

[jeemie]

But they schemed plenty of throws. Ben threw 38 times for 351 yards. The offense performed at an elite level up until about the Patriots 40 yard line. Run or pass it all pretty much worked for most of the field until they got close and then neither worked very well.

Right- but I'm talking about mixing it up a little bit on the various downs- using the run tendencies to scheme PA or something else- rarely are our guys ever WIDE open- usually Ben has to make great throws because he's usually passing when it's expected he'll be passing.

And when we got close, what did we do? We took playmakers out and went jumbo. We put an H-Back and a fullback in for the ground game...we only tried one PA fake that fooled no one except the cameraman.

We seem to have an offense predicated on making sure our playmakers do as little as possible when they need to be doing it. Why is that?

[jeemie]

I disagree with the premise that we have a conservative offense.

Here are two basic measures of offensive aggresiveness
1) yardage per passing attempt: Steelers were 3rd in 2014.
2) pass % on first down: Steelers were 10th. Note: only 2 other teams in the top 10 made the playoffs.

Conclusion: we have an aggressive offense that throws often on first down and throws downfield more than almost any team in the league.

Not on Thursday...and not in the AFCDG last year.

When Tomlin doesn't have all his guys in there, he gets as conservative as all get-out.

[bradshaw2ben]

I disagree with the premise that we have a conservative offense.

Here are two basic measures of offensive aggresiveness
1) yardage per passing attempt: Steelers were 3rd in 2014.
2) pass % on first down: Steelers were 10th. Note: only 2 other teams in the top 10 made the playoffs.

Conclusion: we have an aggressive offense that throws often on first down and throws downfield more than almost any team in the league.

well, 1st and 2nd down in the first 60% of the game would be a better measurement of what I'm talking about.

However, I must be nuts, because so few teams in the league line up in tight formations and run the football from run-expected sets as we do. I mean, like maybe 3-5 other teams in the league do that with anything approaching the consistency we do. We also must lead the league in poor run outcomes in the red zone. Gosh, we're bad. There's just something about the simplicity of our run game and formations. When the threat of getting beaten by the pass game exists and our blocking execution is solid, it works as well as anyone's run game. When that threat is taken away and the space gets tighter, we both go more conservative AND have worse execution.

In part, I think the high ranking for YPA is because Ben is the best in the league at making opportunities for and hitting the deep ball/balls down the field. Also, the league as a whole has few guys with the balls, arm, receivers, and accuracy to throw anything besides quick stuff to the edges.

Also, the YPA doesn't tell the story of where the attempts are thrown. If you don't think we mostly throw quick stuff to the edges or deep bombs and have moved away from intermediate game that was once Ben's strength, you're missing something.

That quick pass offense and solid run game is the epitome of moving between the 20s and stalling... unless you have mismatch TEs and WRs (or a phenomenal mismatch RB like Bell). The teams who score do different stuff in the red zone than they do in the middle of the field. NE, for instance: absurdly quick pick plays to little slot guys + run plays to keep you off balance, then Gronk in the red zone or over the top if you cheat.

[lifelongsteel]

I disagree with the premise that we have a conservative offense.

Here are two basic measures of offensive aggresiveness
1) yardage per passing attempt: Steelers were 3rd in 2014.
2) pass % on first down: Steelers were 10th. Note: only 2 other teams in the top 10 made the playoffs.

Conclusion: we have an aggressive offense that throws often on first down and throws downfield more than almost any team in the league.

well, 1st and 2nd down in the first 60% of the game would be a better measurement of what I'm talking about.

However, I must be nuts, because so few teams in the league line up in tight formations and run the football from run-expected sets as we do. I mean, like maybe 3-5 other teams in the league do that with anything approaching the consistency we do. We also must lead the league in poor run outcomes in the red zone. Gosh, we're bad. There's just something about the simplicity of our run game and formations. When the threat of getting beaten by the pass game exists and our blocking execution is solid, it works as well as anyone's run game. When that threat is taken away and the space gets tighter, we both go more conservative AND have worse execution.

In part, I think the high ranking for YPA is because Ben is the best in the league at making opportunities for and hitting the deep ball/balls down the field. Also, the league as a whole has few guys with the balls, arm, receivers, and accuracy to throw anything besides quick stuff to the edges.

Also, the YPA doesn't tell the story of where the attempts are thrown. If you don't think we mostly throw quick stuff to the edges or deep bombs and have moved away from intermediate game that was once Ben's strength, you're missing something.

That quick pass offense and solid run game is the epitome of moving between the 20s and stalling... unless you have mismatch TEs and WRs (or a phenomenal mismatch RB like Bell). The teams who score do different stuff in the red zone than they do in the middle of the field. NE, for instance: absurdly quick pick plays to little slot guys + run plays to keep you off balance, then Gronk in the red zone or over the top if you cheat.

It is clear that we have a) no easy way to convert on 3rd and 3 and b) no easy way to convert on goal to go situations. My guess is that we don't think of this as a weakness to avoid, but rather a weakness to improve upon - Note how much goal line we ran in camp. Some combination of our system, our play calls, and our players make us an unreliable bet to convert in these situations.

[jeemie]

It is clear that we have a) no easy way to convert on 3rd and 3 and b) no easy way to convert on goal to go situations. My guess is that we don't think of this as a weakness to avoid, but rather a weakness to improve upon - Note how much goal line we ran in camp. Some combination of our system, our play calls, and our players make us an unreliable bet to convert in these situations.

That's why we should do it the Eagles' way- minimize scoring inside the red zone and maximize it outside.

in the end we do have to get better at the goal line, though- for the life of me I don't know why they think Will Johnson and Roosevelt Nix will do that.

[StillMadAtSlobber]

It is clear that we have a) no easy way to convert on 3rd and 3 and b) no easy way to convert on goal to go situations. My guess is that we don't think of this as a weakness to avoid, but rather a weakness to improve upon - Note how much goal line we ran in camp. Some combination of our system, our play calls, and our players make us an unreliable bet to convert in these situations.

That's why we should do it the Eagles' way- minimize scoring inside the red zone and maximize it outside.

in the end we do have to get better at the goal line, though- for the life of me I don't know why they think Will Johnson and Roosevelt Nix will do that.

Because Tomlin's had a massive chubby for that ever since SB XX and wants to do something like it?

[lifelongsteel]

It is clear that we have a) no easy way to convert on 3rd and 3 and b) no easy way to convert on goal to go situations. My guess is that we don't think of this as a weakness to avoid, but rather a weakness to improve upon - Note how much goal line we ran in camp. Some combination of our system, our play calls, and our players make us an unreliable bet to convert in these situations.

That's why we should do it the Eagles' way- minimize scoring inside the red zone and maximize it outside.

in the end we do have to get better at the goal line, though- for the life of me I don't know why they think Will Johnson and Roosevelt Nix will do that.

Here is where i'm not following the narrative, it feels to me like we take "more" endzone/big play shots from outside the 20 than any other team i watch. What is the trick play against NE other than a shot to score from outside the 20?

In regards to the 3rd/4th and 1 or less situations, how about a freakin QB sneak? Brady converts these like 95% of the time. Old man Ugg wearing Brady can do this but we can't risk getting Ben hurt?

[jeemie]

Can't remember the last time we had a QB sneak, Lifelong.

[Drummer Boy]

We always have those fuck-ups. They are a constant.

So if we are pursuing a strategy that relies on us not fucking up, but then don't put in the necessary work to clean up those fuck-ups, guess what? Our strategy and tactics ARE partially to blame!

Antonio Brown's fuck-up isn't there to hurt us if we don't script in that high-risk play right at the beginning of the game. Remember the stat I showed where a non-QB has not attempted a pass in a game Tom Brady has started since 2003? Why do you think that is?

DHB's fuck-up doesn't hurt us as badly if we don't stupidly let the clock tick down to 19 seconds before running that play (and B2B- you can't put that fuck-up on the players. Tomlin controls that- and he has also created a culture about being blase about time management, so you can't expect Ben to have the wherewithal to overrule Tomlin on that score).

The goal-line fuck-up may not be there to hurt us if the team maybe went beyond "seeing New england's defensive line shift tactic on film" and actually practiced against it enough times until it became second nature to stay rooted until BEN signaled the start of the play (OK, this last one is supposition- maybe our players are just stupid).

You can't "leave the small stuff" in the hands of the players. If your head man sets an attitude that he "doesn't sweat the small stuff", then the players won't either.

All cheating aside, New England is "ridiculously efficient" because they SWEAT the small stuff...they do things over and over until it's second nature when they're on the field.

We certainly have our screw-ups, but if we miss two very makeable field goals, and screw up a gimme TD catch and a 1st and 1 situation in every game, then they might as well draw up game plans on a bar napkin. They'll be 2-14 regardless.

As far as the misguided trick play, that's a mistake in the direction of aggressiveness, not the other way around.

As far as New England "sweating the small stuff," yeah they do but what does that have to do with the argument? My argument is that because of their efficiency, whatever its cause, we are better off limiting both teams' opportunities than increasing them. Against most other teams, as I already said, I think you're right.

[lifelongsteel]

We always have those fuck-ups. They are a constant.

So if we are pursuing a strategy that relies on us not fucking up, but then don't put in the necessary work to clean up those fuck-ups, guess what? Our strategy and tactics ARE partially to blame!

Antonio Brown's fuck-up isn't there to hurt us if we don't script in that high-risk play right at the beginning of the game. Remember the stat I showed where a non-QB has not attempted a pass in a game Tom Brady has started since 2003? Why do you think that is?

DHB's fuck-up doesn't hurt us as badly if we don't stupidly let the clock tick down to 19 seconds before running that play (and B2B- you can't put that fuck-up on the players. Tomlin controls that- and he has also created a culture about being blase about time management, so you can't expect Ben to have the wherewithal to overrule Tomlin on that score).

The goal-line fuck-up may not be there to hurt us if the team maybe went beyond "seeing New england's defensive line shift tactic on film" and actually practiced against it enough times until it became second nature to stay rooted until BEN signaled the start of the play (OK, this last one is supposition- maybe our players are just stupid).

You can't "leave the small stuff" in the hands of the players. If your head man sets an attitude that he "doesn't sweat the small stuff", then the players won't either.

All cheating aside, New England is "ridiculously efficient" because they SWEAT the small stuff...they do things over and over until it's second nature when they're on the field.

We certainly have our screw-ups, but if we miss two very makeable field goals, and screw up a gimme TD catch and a 1st and 1 situation in every game, then they might as well draw up game plans on a bar napkin. They'll be 2-14 regardless.

As far as the misguided trick play, that's a mistake in the direction of aggressiveness, not the other way around.

As far as New England "sweating the small stuff," yeah they do but what does that have to do with the argument? My argument is that because of their efficiency, whatever its cause, we are better off limiting both teams' opportunities than increasing them. Against most other teams, as I already said, I think you're right.

Really smart take

[JackLambert58]

Can't remember the last time we had a QB sneak, Lifelong.

Brady had two successful ones Thursday night. Would have been nice to see Ben try one on one of those plays from the one. Also, forget when this happened but on a pass play Ben rolled to the right. Wide open field in front of him for the first down but he opts to throw it to AB in coverage. Incomplete.

[lifelongsteel]

Can't remember the last time we had a QB sneak, Lifelong.

Brady had two successful ones Thursday night. Would have been nice to see Ben try one on one of those plays from the one. Also, forget when this happened but on a pass play Ben rolled to the right. Wide open field in front of him for the first down but he opts to throw it to AB in coverage. Incomplete.

devastatingly effective when you have an opponent stuck in a nickel defense and you don't let them sub. Not enough beef in the middle of the defense to stop the sneak. 99% of the time it works every single fucking time.

[Legacy User]

1. we didn't really run the wheels off Bell... we used him a lot but he's one of the two or three best conditioned athletes on the team (by the way, the three or four best I can think of ALL have one thing in common: a personal strategy and offseason work outside the S&C from the team). You can debate whether it was necessary for him to be in there for the exact play he was injured but he wasn't worn down. He is the guy who makes our offense go-- as it's presently construed. He is one of the very top YAC guys as a receiver and the best RB in the game, so feeding him the football is maximizing your strengths when you have Haley (and likely Tomlin) attitude toward offensive style.

2. Greek, the injury situations late in the year have really hampered his playoff record. Pouncey and Sanders in Super Bowl. Clark in Denver. 4th string LT having to play in 2007. Bell last year. Those are his 4 postseason losses. Ben and Troy being injured probably dimmed playoff chances in a couple of other seasons. Should we have a better plan for overcoming those injuries? Valid question. Overall, I think his plan has been okay for most of his postseason games.

3. the focus on athleticism was in reaction to TEs becoming more athletic everywhere but Pittsburgh and the stretch play + spread becoming de rigeur in the NFL. We were getting killed by teams that spread us out, used quick throws, have athletic mismatch TEs. IMO we tried a certain drafting strategy to address this but a combination of draft failures and poor on field strategic choices/personnel choices have stalled that effort.

4. I think the conservatism has been long based on having a superior late-game QB and also protecting the defense. As we have seen, this strategy leaves little margin for errors and mistakes and it also requires the QB to make the most of opportunities, even when the playcalling doesn't put him into a rhythm-- something all QBs need. It also requires the team oriented approaches on O and D are executed well at big moments. You can't have WRs who don't know where to line up or RBs that don't know who to pick up in pass pro or OL that get penalized or false start when you're rolling. I'd trade taking your time and playing it slow for making fewer mistakes because of it-- only we still seem to make a lot of mistakes. Maybe it would be worse if we went fast but my opinion is we'd have more opportunities to overcome the mistakes.

I really appreciate your thoughtful posts on this subject. It's so much better than what we usually get from too many posters on this site.

DERP...Tomlin sucks
DERP...Colbert sucks
DERP...Rooney sucks

I appreciate your extra effort

[Donnie Brasco]

Can't remember the last time we had a QB sneak, Lifelong.

Brady had two successful ones Thursday night. Would have been nice to see Ben try one on one of those plays from the one. Also, forget when this happened but on a pass play Ben rolled to the right. Wide open field in front of him for the first down but he opts to throw it to AB in coverage. Incomplete.

That was the shovel pass to Miller. Pats read it perfectly and you're right, if Ben keeps the ball he probably scores

[Legacy User]

Can't remember the last time we had a QB sneak, Lifelong.

Brady had two successful ones Thursday night. Would have been nice to see Ben try one on one of those plays from the one. Also, forget when this happened but on a pass play Ben rolled to the right. Wide open field in front of him for the first down but he opts to throw it to AB in coverage. Incomplete.

Brady is about the only QB that Ive seen that sneaks like he's diving under a wave. Looks like a pretty smart way to do it.
Ben is more a bull in a china closet, I think. it's been a while.

[StillMadAtSlobber]

1. we didn't really run the wheels off Bell... we used him a lot but he's one of the two or three best conditioned athletes on the team (by the way, the three or four best I can think of ALL have one thing in common: a personal strategy and offseason work outside the S&C from the team). You can debate whether it was necessary for him to be in there for the exact play he was injured but he wasn't worn down. He is the guy who makes our offense go-- as it's presently construed. He is one of the very top YAC guys as a receiver and the best RB in the game, so feeding him the football is maximizing your strengths when you have Haley (and likely Tomlin) attitude toward offensive style.

He virtually ran the wheels off Bell then.

Is your definition of "running the wheels off" 350 carries? 375, 400?

Fine, Bell had 290 carries. Oh, and he had 83 receptions on 105 targets for another 854 yards.
He would have exceeded 400 in the last Bengals game, he was injured after 8 carries

Blount, when used was almost just as effective. I am trying to see the negative side to using Blount and can't. The offense went fine with Blount in there. 65 carries 266 yards 4.1 ypc. 6 receptions 36 yards 6 ypc.

I cant argue that Tomlin didnt protect Blount though. He did an excessively good job at that. In fact, he protected his backup RB so well in his last game (Titans) it should be considered a benchmark for other coaches to emulate. There was no threat whatsoever of injury, wearing down, running out of breath, sweating or getting dirt on his uniform. Now rust, well yeah some threat of that - oh and splinters in the butt.

[Legacy User]

1. we didn't really run the wheels off Bell... we used him a lot but he's one of the two or three best conditioned athletes on the team (by the way, the three or four best I can think of ALL have one thing in common: a personal strategy and offseason work outside the S&C from the team). You can debate whether it was necessary for him to be in there for the exact play he was injured but he wasn't worn down. He is the guy who makes our offense go-- as it's presently construed. He is one of the very top YAC guys as a receiver and the best RB in the game, so feeding him the football is maximizing your strengths when you have Haley (and likely Tomlin) attitude toward offensive style.

2. Greek, the injury situations late in the year have really hampered his playoff record. Pouncey and Sanders in Super Bowl. Clark in Denver. 4th string LT having to play in 2007. Bell last year. Those are his 4 postseason losses. Ben and Troy being injured probably dimmed playoff chances in a couple of other seasons. Should we have a better plan for overcoming those injuries? Valid question. Overall, I think his plan has been okay for most of his postseason games.

3. the focus on athleticism was in reaction to TEs becoming more athletic everywhere but Pittsburgh and the stretch play + spread becoming de rigeur in the NFL. We were getting killed by teams that spread us out, used quick throws, have athletic mismatch TEs. IMO we tried a certain drafting strategy to address this but a combination of draft failures and poor on field strategic choices/personnel choices have stalled that effort.

4. I think the conservatism has been long based on having a superior late-game QB and also protecting the defense. As we have seen, this strategy leaves little margin for errors and mistakes and it also requires the QB to make the most of opportunities, even when the playcalling doesn't put him into a rhythm-- something all QBs need. It also requires the team oriented approaches on O and D are executed well at big moments. You can't have WRs who don't know where to line up or RBs that don't know who to pick up in pass pro or OL that get penalized or false start when you're rolling. I'd trade taking your time and playing it slow for making fewer mistakes because of it-- only we still seem to make a lot of mistakes. Maybe it would be worse if we went fast but my opinion is we'd have more opportunities to overcome the mistakes.

I really appreciate your thoughtful posts on this subject. It's so much better than what we usually get from too many posters on this site.

DERP...Tomlin sucks
DERP...Colbert sucks
DERP...Rooney sucks

I appreciate your extra effort

Ditto. There are a handful of guys here who legitimately add value, a bunch of guys who are just here to complain about everything like they're bellied up to the sports bar and a few losers whose only human interaction seems to be trolling internet message boards.

[Legacy User]

1. we didn't really run the wheels off Bell... we used him a lot but he's one of the two or three best conditioned athletes on the team (by the way, the three or four best I can think of ALL have one thing in common: a personal strategy and offseason work outside the S&C from the team). You can debate whether it was necessary for him to be in there for the exact play he was injured but he wasn't worn down. He is the guy who makes our offense go-- as it's presently construed. He is one of the very top YAC guys as a receiver and the best RB in the game, so feeding him the football is maximizing your strengths when you have Haley (and likely Tomlin) attitude toward offensive style.

2. Greek, the injury situations late in the year have really hampered his playoff record. Pouncey and Sanders in Super Bowl. Clark in Denver. 4th string LT having to play in 2007. Bell last year. Those are his 4 postseason losses. Ben and Troy being injured probably dimmed playoff chances in a couple of other seasons. Should we have a better plan for overcoming those injuries? Valid question. Overall, I think his plan has been okay for most of his postseason games.

3. the focus on athleticism was in reaction to TEs becoming more athletic everywhere but Pittsburgh and the stretch play + spread becoming de rigeur in the NFL. We were getting killed by teams that spread us out, used quick throws, have athletic mismatch TEs. IMO we tried a certain drafting strategy to address this but a combination of draft failures and poor on field strategic choices/personnel choices have stalled that effort.

4. I think the conservatism has been long based on having a superior late-game QB and also protecting the defense. As we have seen, this strategy leaves little margin for errors and mistakes and it also requires the QB to make the most of opportunities, even when the playcalling doesn't put him into a rhythm-- something all QBs need. It also requires the team oriented approaches on O and D are executed well at big moments. You can't have WRs who don't know where to line up or RBs that don't know who to pick up in pass pro or OL that get penalized or false start when you're rolling. I'd trade taking your time and playing it slow for making fewer mistakes because of it-- only we still seem to make a lot of mistakes. Maybe it would be worse if we went fast but my opinion is we'd have more opportunities to overcome the mistakes.

I really appreciate your thoughtful posts on this subject. It's so much better than what we usually get from too many posters on this site.

DERP...Tomlin sucks
DERP...Colbert sucks
DERP...Rooney sucks

I appreciate your extra effort

Ditto. There are a handful of guys here who legitimately add value, a bunch of guys who are just here to complain about everything like they're bellied up to the sports bar and a few losers whose only human interaction seems to be trolling internet message boards.

Other than the small frame type snark and the Rooneys holding down Tomlin and if you dont agree you are one of those guys, I think most here try to contribute. Most of use just ain't any damn good at it.

It might be that most of us a posting in between bursts of work that come past our desks.

[BethlehemSteel]

Game film breakdown

.....seems like old BB was trolling Tomlin and his issues....when has he done this before?........ Zolak is a dick homer troll and the mass faithful are laughing their collective asses off............IF I was Mike T, i'd be running for the exit.

http://www.patriots.com/video/2015/09/1 ... s-steelers

[jeemie]

Game film breakdown

.....seems like old BB was trolling Tomlin and his issues....when has he done this before?........ Zolak is a dick homer troll and the mass faithful are laughing their collective asses off............IF I was Mike T, i'd be running for the exit.

http://www.patriots.com/video/2015/09/1 ... s-steelers

That long seamer to Gronk made me want to take Mitchell and beat him with a baseball bat.

Gronk and Edelman both run routes down the right side of the field...and Mitchell cheats to the left?

WTF?!?!?!?!?

[jebrick]

Game film breakdown

.....seems like old BB was trolling Tomlin and his issues....when has he done this before?........ Zolak is a dick homer troll and the mass faithful are laughing their collective asses off............IF I was Mike T, i'd be running for the exit.

http://www.patriots.com/video/2015/09/1 ... s-steelers

That long seamer to Gronk made me want to take Mitchell and beat him with a baseball bat.

Gronk and Edelman both run routes down the right side of the field...and Mitchell cheats to the left?

WTF?!?!?!?!?

This is where I would blame preparation of the secondary first then Michell second.

[Obviously]

BB has been successfully trolling Tomlin since 2007. BB puts STD, Switz and bfingersby to shame.

[Steel Mike]

Game film breakdown

.....seems like old BB was trolling Tomlin and his issues....when has he done this before?........ Zolak is a dick homer troll and the mass faithful are laughing their collective asses off............IF I was Mike T, i'd be running for the exit.

http://www.patriots.com/video/2015/09/1 ... s-steelers

That long seamer to Gronk made me want to take Mitchell and beat him with a baseball bat.

Gronk and Edelman both run routes down the right side of the field...and Mitchell cheats to the left?

WTF?!?!?!?!?

This is where I would blame preparation of the secondary first then Michell second.

It doesn't take a lot of preparation to know who the top 2 receiving threats are. Mitchell has sucked as a Steeler so far.

[Obviously]

Bump

If he has any defenders after tonight, they have been lobotomized.

[Legacy User]

Bump

If he has any defenders after tonight, they have been lobotomized.

team played great....as usual you are way off base

but you damn well had a 4 page old post qued up didnt you?

[Legacy User]

He needs to stop calling for Scobee to miss half his field goal attempts and receivers to screw up sure touchdown catches. You can't do that. Especially when you're replacing your starting QB with only three days between games.

[K_C_]

He needs to stop calling for Scobee to miss half his field goal attempts and receivers to screw up sure touchdown catches. You can't do that. Especially when you're replacing your starting QB with only three days between games.

Hi Mrs. Tomlin.

[JackLambert58]

I don't blame Tomlin for the missed FG's, of course.

The only thing I blame him for is not punting in OT on the opening drive. He gave the Ravens the ball with a short field with all they had to do was kick the FG to win, and sure enough that's what they did. Unfortunately, that critical decision lost them the game.

[Legacy User]

If you agree with the first 2 kicks then you have to disagree with him not trying the third to win the game.

He is both stupid AND inconsistent.

[Minkah'n History]

How about the play calling in crucial spots in this game where MT had say in the play called.

Le'Veon NEVER got any short yardage carries. All Vicks throws HAD to be short of the sticks.

Tomlin has no idea what he's doing late in games, inconsistent is right.