Todd Haley gone

[stillcajun]

And you have to decide how much to blame them for the TD after Ben's INT.

A supposedly Top 10 D would've held them to 3pts or created a TO on a QB named Blake Bortles but I digress...

[stillcajun]

Worst news it being reported that Tomlin is going to bring back his whole Defensive staff according to GD

Absolutely unbelievable to me.

Me too, Suwanee. Maybe Art II and Bob Nutting are one in the same. Next they’re going to announce Mike Mitchell will return as the starting free safety

I am expecting Mike Mitchell will be our starting FS next year. They’ll draft some depth but I doubt they’ll start a rookie[/quote

I hope they go out and get another FA maybe a guy like Eric Reid over in SF. He's a FA and would be an extreme upgrade to what's there now.

[COR-TEN]

So a question for all you x's and o'c nerds scrubbing tape.

What exactly went wrong with the defense? Execution? Preparation? Game planning? Stupid players? Lack of coaching up of athletically talented players? What?

I'd like some specifics. We all know what happened last year. We also know the Jags used PA quite a bit with the threat of fournette. But what's up with a lack of gap integrity and sloppy tackling? Do coaches just ignore that?

It boiled down to lack of talent through the middle of the defense, imo. Or, like b2b said, a DC that's was unwilling to experiment with pulling talent from other positions of strength to help out down the middle. Hargrave (Dline), Spence and Mitchell were some of the biggest issues.

It's not like you can go out and get a MILB overnight to plug the hole. Or a new safety at the end of the season. Watt already had a shitload on his plate, and you want to add more as an ILB? I wonder about mccullers, and why the fuck he sat on the bench for most of the season. Do other organizations shelf players simply for insurance?

[Lynch]

It's a sad day mein homies, a sad sad day.

[Steelknife]

So a question for all you x's and o'c nerds scrubbing tape.

What exactly went wrong with the defense? Execution? Preparation? Game planning? Stupid players? Lack of coaching up of athletically talented players? What?

I'd like some specifics. We all know what happened last year. We also know the Jags used PA quite a bit with the threat of fournette. But what's up with a lack of gap integrity and sloppy tackling? Do coaches just ignore that?

It boiled down to lack of talent through the middle of the defense, imo. Or, like b2b said, a DC that's was unwilling to experiment with pulling talent from other positions of strength to help out down the middle. Hargrave (Dline), Spence and Mitchell were some of the biggest issues.

It's not like you can go out and get a MILB overnight to plug the hole. Or a new safety at the end of the season. Watt already had a shitload on his plate, and you want to add more as an ILB? I wonder about mccullers, and why the fuck he sat on the bench for most of the season. Do other organizations shelf players simply for insurance?

Why didn't we have better depth at ILB? Serious question. Given Shazier's injury history, why was that the best we had? Why hasn't Dupree taken snaps inside? He's useless outside. Why hasn't Mitchell? Even if just for emergencies.

[K_C_]

It's a sad day mein homies, a sad sad day.

I'm not sad. We're going to Disney (I'll live in Epcot - they have booze) this weekend.

[COR-TEN]

Why didn't we have better depth at ILB? Serious question. Given Shazier's injury history, why was that the best we had? Why hasn't Dupree taken snaps inside? He's useless outside. Why hasn't Mitchell? Even if just for emergencies.

This. I don't disagree that there were issues, but how much of them should be placed at Butler's feet?

I'm pissed at the defensive performance like everybody, but I'm also trying to be sensible in my analysis. Is it really all Butler's fault? If McCullers was that bad, why didn't they release him instead of Harrison? Who's decision was that? Butler, although responsible for the defense, hasn't shown as much ineptitude as Haley. His schemes were a bit different than lebeau, but I guess I'm just more patient and willing to give him another shot. Haley used up his shots long ago.

[K_C_]

Why didn't we have better depth at ILB? Serious question. Given Shazier's injury history, why was that the best we had? Why hasn't Dupree taken snaps inside? He's useless outside. Why hasn't Mitchell? Even if just for emergencies.

This. I don't disagree that there were issues, but how much of them should be placed at Butler's feet?

I'm pissed at the defensive performance like everybody, but I'm also trying to be sensible in my analysis. Is it really all Butler's fault? If McCullers was that bad, why didn't they release him instead of Harrison? Who's decision was that? Butler, although responsible for the defense, hasn't shown as much ineptitude as Haley. His schemes were a bit different than lebeau, but I guess I'm just more patient and willing to give him another shot. Haley used up his shots long ago.

I'm still shocked they didn't move Watt inside and give AN OBVIOUSLY FRESH Harrison a shitload of plays at his regular spot.

Just so dumb.

[stillcajun]

So a question for all you x's and o'c nerds scrubbing tape.

What exactly went wrong with the defense? Execution? Preparation? Game planning? Stupid players? Lack of coaching up of athletically talented players? What?

I'd like some specifics. We all know what happened last year. We also know the Jags used PA quite a bit with the threat of fournette. But what's up with a lack of gap integrity and sloppy tackling? Do coaches just ignore that?

It boiled down to lack of talent through the middle of the defense, imo. Or, like b2b said, a DC that's was unwilling to experiment with pulling talent from other positions of strength to help out down the middle. Hargrave (Dline), Spence and Mitchell were some of the biggest issues.

I agree DP39 and here's where the fault lands on Butler to me. Toward the last 2-3 games it seems that the DL went from their gap penetration style back to the read/react, occupying blockers style. To me this is back to the "live in our fears" scenario after Shazier went down. They had to know there was no quality depth behind Shazier and Williams. Matakavich is a player but is nowhere near fast enough to play as a replacement and Fort is too soft. Then the desperation heave to bring in a Spence "because he knows the system" instead of seeing if there was a better option although w/ him it might've been finger in the dike to stop the leak. .

Our secondary was Jekyll and Hyde, they were too scared to replace Mitchell who's play has regressed to the point of bench player at best. They should've put Gay out @ FS in my opinion and let Sutton take his place as the dime but none of this was done.I believe Wilcox should've gotten more time in the safety spot as he was a better option than Mitchell. I believe this what was different w/ Butler and the really good DCs (Jags, Buff, Chargers, Pats etc) in the league. They don't let guys continue to drag them down just because they're a labeled starter. If they can't get the job done then they'll replace them with a better option even if it takes a little more of a learning curve for that player to get up to speed. Butler castrates the D to protect weak spots which causes the deficiencies in the D overall.

And we all know the Harrison/Dupree/OLB issues that can be piled onto this as well.

Just my opinion.

[W&M_Steeler]

Why didn't we have better depth at ILB? Serious question. Given Shazier's injury history, why was that the best we had? Why hasn't Dupree taken snaps inside? He's useless outside. Why hasn't Mitchell? Even if just for emergencies.

This. I don't disagree that there were issues, but how much of them should be placed at Butler's feet?

I'm pissed at the defensive performance like everybody, but I'm also trying to be sensible in my analysis. Is it really all Butler's fault? If McCullers was that bad, why didn't they release him instead of Harrison? Who's decision was that? Butler, although responsible for the defense, hasn't shown as much ineptitude as Haley. His schemes were a bit different than lebeau, but I guess I'm just more patient and willing to give him another shot. Haley used up his shots long ago.

I'm still shocked they didn't move Watt inside and give AN OBVIOUSLY FRESH Harrison a shitload of plays at his regular spot.

Just so dumb.

I think Harrison hurt Porter's feelings, so Tomlin and Butler tried to teach Harrison a lesson. Whoops.

[K_C_]

I think Harrison hurt Porter's feelings, so Tomlin and Butler tried to teach Harrison a lesson. Whoops.

Yep. ZERO DOUBT they tried to teach Debo some lesson.

He turned it around on them and in the end, I'll be SHOCKED if he isn't hoisting another Lombardi.

[jeemie]

Like it or not, losing Shazier kept Butler his job. Replacing Shaz with Spence is the scapegoat he needed and gets him another year, at least, as DC. Also, having Dirty Red hurt helped a little as well.

If this is true, then it’s further evidence that this braintrust will never win a Super Bowl.

Because as B2B pointed out, great coaches brook no excuses, but figure out a way to get things done.

This was a Super Bowl-caliber offense. All it needed to compete for a ring was a defense that could be just passable. It essentially became no better than having nobody on the field...that is HUGELY damning of the DC.

Belichick would have had Butler and his staff out on their collective asses at the end of LAST year.

[jeemie]

Why didn't we have better depth at ILB? Serious question. Given Shazier's injury history, why was that the best we had? Why hasn't Dupree taken snaps inside? He's useless outside. Why hasn't Mitchell? Even if just for emergencies.

This. I don't disagree that there were issues, but how much of them should be placed at Butler's feet?

I'm pissed at the defensive performance like everybody, but I'm also trying to be sensible in my analysis. Is it really all Butler's fault? If McCullers was that bad, why didn't they release him instead of Harrison? Who's decision was that? Butler, although responsible for the defense, hasn't shown as much ineptitude as Haley. His schemes were a bit different than lebeau, but I guess I'm just more patient and willing to give him another shot. Haley used up his shots long ago.

I give him no pass.

All the defense had to be was a modicum or competent. It didn’t have to be all-World. The offense was way good enough to make up for that.

New England won a Super Bowl with the 32nd ranked defense, but it was coached up to be competent in the post-season.

New Orleans won a Super Bowl with a lousy defense that was coached up to be opportunistic and caught lightning in a bottle.

The time to win the Super Bowl was NOW...we proved we could hang with New England...it was on Butler to make sure the defense wasn’t a huge weak link.

He failed. He and his entire staff should be OUT.

[Legacy User]

I think you misunderstood there.

The key word is ONLY Haley was let go.

Should have been defensive staff changes as well is what is being said...not saying Todd should have been retained.

I hate EVERY SINGLE COACH on the Steelers staff with a bitter passion after that game last Sunday, but after Shazier went down (likely permanently) it was pretty clear we weren't going to be winning anything important. Our defense, simply, wasn't going to be anywhere near good enough and when you take away the ONE GUY on that defense that can actually make plays and create turnovers, your defense is going to be FINISHED.

I HATE Keith Butler but until we get better players at MLB, LOLB, safety, CB and likely NT and maybe DE (Tuitt SUCKED COCK this year) our defense isn't going to be any good.

At all.

But even when you put up 42 pts?? i dunno i thought our defense would be slightly better at least than giving up 45 at home coming off a bye week to BB and the jags juggernaut offense.

[W&M_Steeler]

Why didn't we have better depth at ILB? Serious question. Given Shazier's injury history, why was that the best we had? Why hasn't Dupree taken snaps inside? He's useless outside. Why hasn't Mitchell? Even if just for emergencies.

This. I don't disagree that there were issues, but how much of them should be placed at Butler's feet?

I'm pissed at the defensive performance like everybody, but I'm also trying to be sensible in my analysis. Is it really all Butler's fault? If McCullers was that bad, why didn't they release him instead of Harrison? Who's decision was that? Butler, although responsible for the defense, hasn't shown as much ineptitude as Haley. His schemes were a bit different than lebeau, but I guess I'm just more patient and willing to give him another shot. Haley used up his shots long ago.

I give him no pass.

All the defense had to be was a modicum or competent. It didn’t have to be all-World. The offense was way good enough to make up for that.

New England won a Super Bowl with the 32nd ranked defense, but it was coached up to be competent in the post-season.

New Orleans won a Super Bowl with a lousy defense that was coached up to be opportunistic and caught lightning in a bottle.

The time to win the Super Bowl was NOW...we proved we could hang with New England...it was on Butler to make sure the defense wasn’t a huge weak link.

He failed. He and his entire staff should be OUT.

I agree.

The FO also bears some of the blame, though, for allowing ILB to get so weak. I thought they should have made a run at extending Timmons last offseason. He's a bit past his prime, but Timmons would have been better than Spence, that's for sure.

[the-other-burg]

I think you misunderstood there.

The key word is ONLY Haley was let go.

Should have been defensive staff changes as well is what is being said...not saying Todd should have been retained.

I hate EVERY SINGLE COACH on the Steelers staff with a bitter passion after that game last Sunday, but after Shazier went down (likely permanently) it was pretty clear we weren't going to be winning anything important. Our defense, simply, wasn't going to be anywhere near good enough and when you take away the ONE GUY on that defense that can actually make plays and create turnovers, your defense is going to be FINISHED.

I HATE Keith Butler but until we get better players at MLB, LOLB, safety, CB and likely NT and maybe DE (Tuitt SUCKED COCK this year) our defense isn't going to be any good.

At all.

But even when you put up 42 pts?? i dunno i thought our defense would be slightly better at least than giving up 45 at home coming off a bye week to BB and the jags juggernaut offense.

Yup.

Butler (and by extension Tomlin) got SMOKED in their last two playoff games. Not just beaten mind you, but destroyed.. eviscerated.. embarrassed.. thoroughly out-prepared, and caught off guard. Two playoff games in a row. Thats pretty damning.

[jeemie]

I don’t absolve the staff/FO for their failure to address ILB which as was said WE identified as a critically weak area at the beginning of the season.

And the utter lack of a pass rush sure is going to make their decision to release Deebo short-sighted.

But that didn’t mean their defense had to devolve to the point of being no better than actually not being on the field.

[K_C_]

I think you misunderstood there.

The key word is ONLY Haley was let go.

Should have been defensive staff changes as well is what is being said...not saying Todd should have been retained.

I hate EVERY SINGLE COACH on the Steelers staff with a bitter passion after that game last Sunday, but after Shazier went down (likely permanently) it was pretty clear we weren't going to be winning anything important. Our defense, simply, wasn't going to be anywhere near good enough and when you take away the ONE GUY on that defense that can actually make plays and create turnovers, your defense is going to be FINISHED.

I HATE Keith Butler but until we get better players at MLB, LOLB, safety, CB and likely NT and maybe DE (Tuitt SUCKED COCK this year) our defense isn't going to be any good.

At all.

But even when you put up 42 pts?? i dunno i thought our defense would be slightly better at least than giving up 45 at home coming off a bye week to BB and the jags juggernaut offense.

Dude, do you remember how we made Brett Fucking Hundley look like Joe Namath just one week after he was historically inept against the Bears?

Deshone Kizer came within a PUSSY HAIR of beating our best defensive players sans Heyward. A perfectly thrown ball for what should have been the win was dropped with no Steeler defender nearby to make a play.

Flacco put up 38 against our defense. They have ZERO offensive weapons.

The lowly Chicago Bears ASS RAPED us on the ground (and this was WITH Shazier).

We have a HORRIBLE defense.

[W&M_Steeler]

I don’t absolve the staff/FO for their failure to address ILB which as was said WE identified as a critically weak area at the beginning of the season.

And the utter lack of a pass rush sure is going to make their decision to release Deebo short-sighted.

But that didn’t mean their defense had to devolve to the point of being no better than actually not being on the field.

Agreed. It seems as though they had no contingency plan for if Shazier suffered an injury. He was the lynch pin for the defense. Now that Shazier is likely never going to be able to come back, the defense needs to be fundamentally redesigned. It seems like the perfect time to clean house and bring in a fresh staff with a new perspective on defense. Either that, or they need to hit the jackpot in FA.

Also, what is it with Tomlin & Co. risking the season by having essentially no depth at a key spot? In a way, this year's ILB situation reminds me of 2014, when the Steelers had no back-up running back and, after Bell's injury, had to sign Ben Tate off of the street to start a playoff game.

[Legacy User]

Worst news it being reported that Tomlin is going to bring back his whole Defensive staff according to GD

This is how bad the defense played Sunday:

Jacksonville ran 61 plays. The defense had 0 (zero, none, nada, zilch) 3 and outs. Of the 61 plays ran, the Steelers defense mustered up one play for a loss, Bortles kneel down on the last play of the first half. You have to try to suck that bad, sucking that bad is hard....like dividing by 0 hard.

[955876]

Losing 45-42 THIS week would have sucked but would not have surprising at all.

Losing 45-42 LAST week while playing at home and to a team led by Blake Bortles is not acceptable.

Someone on D needs to be fired.

[chippedhamsandwich]

I love that this idiots legacy is two failed fourth and less than a yarders in a must win game and breaking his pelvis in a bar altercation at the Tequila Cowboy on NYE.

Good riddance.

Fucking job with the team he grew up with cheering for on the line and this fucker decides to call shit like that?

[randomsteelerfan]

We allowed only 38 points.

I'd say 35 points, when you consider the fact that the D forced a 3 and out after the ill-conceived onsides kick. Tomlin put them in that spot.

Yes, I feel much better now.

[randomsteelerfan]

Losing 45-42 THIS week would have sucked but would not have surprising at all.

Losing 45-42 LAST week while playing at home and to a team led by Blake Bortles is not acceptable.

Someone on D needs to be fired.

Ya, I don’t agree with blaming the talent. There was wayyyy too many blown assignments and miscommunications all fucking year to absolve this staff. That’s coaching.

[Legacy User]

Losing 45-42 THIS week would have sucked but would not have surprising at all.

Losing 45-42 LAST week while playing at home and to a team led by Blake Bortles is not acceptable.

Someone on D needs to be fired.

Eevryone on that defensive staff should have been canned for that "performance"

[StillerDownSouth]

Like it or not, losing Shazier kept Butler his job. Replacing Shaz with Spence is the scapegoat he needed and gets him another year, at least, as DC. Also, having Dirty Red hurt helped a little as well.

If this is true, then it’s further evidence that this braintrust will never win a Super Bowl.

Because as B2B pointed out, great coaches brook no excuses, but figure out a way to get things done.

This was a Super Bowl-caliber offense. All it needed to compete for a ring was a defense that could be just passable. It essentially became no better than having nobody on the field...that is HUGELY damning of the DC.

Belichick would have had Butler and his staff out on their collective asses at the end of LAST year.

PS probably are in bottom 1/3 of league when it comes to defensive talent. Think about it, Shazier is/was a stud, Heyward is also damn good, but other than that who do they have on defense that you would say man that guy is the best or even top 10 at his position?

Watt showed promising signs as a rookie during the 1st half of the season, but was basically a ghost 2nd half.
Dupree makes a good play every 6 games or so.
Hargrave is a JAG at best, occasionally got pressure on QB's, but how many tackles for loss did he have all year, I would guess zero.
Tuit has shown signs of being a dominant DE, but I think he was playing injured all season.
VWill made some nice plays blitzing up the middle unblocked, but is probably one of the worst starting inside LB's in the league.
Spence is a scrub, plain and simple, wasn't even good enough to be on a roster before we brought him in, which says a lot about our ILB depth.
Burns showed signs as a rookie but regressed this year, won't tackle, isn't physical, and has a bone headed play at least once a game.
Davis is so-so, decent in run support, had a chance to seal the Patriot game and let the ball go through his hands.
Haden was a nice addition, he's maybe in the top 30 as far a corners in the league.
Mitchell is a bum, pure and simple.

So when you consider that when they had Shazier and Haden both playing they were at the time a top 5 unit in the league is pretty amazing to me, because when you really look closely at it, there isn't much talent on that side of the ball, sure we might have a couple emerging role players in Burns, Davis and Watt, but I would be shocked if any of the 3 are ever All-Pro level. It is time for Ben to take one for the team if he really wants to win another championship and restructure his current deal and take a massive pay cut a la TB12 so the PS can sign some free agents to help the defense, because at the end of the day, it usually doesn't matter how good your offense is if you can't stop anyone. Defense and strong running game still win championships, this will never change in my opinion. Even the Patriots who give up a ton of yards, are always top 5 in the league giving up points. Denver's defense carried noodle arm Manning to a title, Seattle had a dominating defense when they won it, the Giants def carried sorry ass Eli to 2 titles, and frankly, the 2 years Ben won it all, what did we have, yes sir, a dominating defense and a solid running game.

[Tundralag]

I don't know how anyone looking at this D all year and can say " great job Butler and staff, welcome back for 2018"

I would fire every last one of them.. You could have put out 6 Traffic cones most of the season and got a better looking D..

[Kodiak]

If it means a freeing of Ben that results in a Super Bowl win or two, I could GAF about who is head coach.

Yes, but can we find a new HC that believes in the QB sneak? I think what we're looking for is:
1) Know when to call TO
2) Know when to throw the challenge flag
3) Know when to onside kick
4) Know when to QB sneak

[Kodiak]

I HATE Keith Butler but until we get better players at MLB, LOLB, safety, CB and likely NT and maybe DE (Tuitt SUCKED COCK this year) our defense isn't going to be any good.

I have to agree with B2B and FC.....Porter and Lake have been here plenty long enough and have failed to develop any players. Let's hope Deuce isn't blinded by loyalty and can't see they aren't 1/10th of what they were as a player as a coach.

[Kodiak]

Belichick would have had Butler and his staff out on their collective asses at the end of LAST year.

True. And no one who works for Belicheat would ever have put forth those two horrid efforts - Belicheat would have stepped in before that ever happens.